I think we're done with 4E

[Obryn]

(1) While my group is enjoying 4e, I need to speed up combat, and this thread has been great for that. (We had the same problem in 3e, by the end.)

(2) Earthdawn is an odd duck. When it was competing directly with 2e, there was no contest - it had better mechanics and a better setting, with higher-quality materials all around. On the other hand, it's a very 90's style game... There's some character customization, but less than 4e and much less than 3e. Balance goes out the window by about 6th Circle or so. Karma is all-powerful. The Step system can get cumbersome. With that said, the setting is pure excellence. The sourcebooks are great reads, but contain very few mechanics. The setting detail can either be enriching, enlightening, or oppressive ... Mostly, I found I cared about the setting way, way more than my players did. They just wanted to play D&D with better mechanics.

(3) WFRP2 is outstanding. I love it, and it's one of the 3 games I have in rotation. You can run a comprehensive game with nothing but the Core + Old World Bestiary. (I'd recommend Tome of Salvation, Tome of Corruption, Sigmar's Heirs, and Realms of Sorcery - but they're not necessary. You could probably run an entire campaign without the Brettonia, Kislev, Border Princes, or Vampire books - but they're all well-done and lots of fun as fluff.) I know that all roads end in Champion, but if the PCs get that far, something has gone wrong. Really, you're talking 50+ sessions, at 100 xp per session, with a very deadly combat system. About the only thing I'd recommend is house-ruling armor to go 1/2/3 (or 1/2/4 or 1/3/4) instead of 1/3/5 for Leather/Chain/Plate. Plate plus a high TB makes for gruesomely long combats.

-O

 

[Rackhir]

Perhaps I am in the minority, but I play this game for the story, not the combat. If the combat is boring and predictable, why not throw in curve balls like the environment changing (e.g. a pit opening in the middle of the room, cave in, fog moves in, etc) or a diplomatic solution presenting itself (e.g. a group of female orcs with their young plead with the PCs not to kill off the last of their hunters).

Do you realize who you were talking to?

 

[Darrin Drader]

We're looking for a game where combats are fast, we don't want to spend half the session on every fight and flexibility is a must as one of the player's likes experimenting. The options are Castles and Crusades, WFRP2, and Earthdawn.

My experience with Earthdawn goes back over a decade and I have yet to really get a look at the latest version so I can't comment there. WFRP2 - I don't even know what that is. If someone wants to enlighten me, I'd be grateful.

Finally Castles and Crusades is something I have some experience with. It plays just like classic AD&D except without some of the complications. Combat is as easy as it ever was and the SIEGE system is, in my opinion, the ultimate streamlined system. Saving throws - gone and incorporated into the system. Skills and skill points - gone and incorporated into the system. If there's a weakness to this approach, it's that everything is so uniform, but in actual play, it's a dream - provided that system mastery isn't your bag. If it is, then players are likely to get bored. Or to put it another way, if players like tons of combat options and ways to min/max their characters, C&C will get old.

If you like a very narrative approach to roleplaying, you should enjoy C&C. If you like a few more options and complexity, you may want to look elsewhere. Personally I see C&C as the basic D&D of our day, and then my system of choice for standard D&D is Pathfinder (though not particularly being a 3E fan, it may not be your bag either). True20 and Modern20 are my systems of choice fo modern and future games.

 

[Jack99]

I'll have no hesitation whatsoever using fewer monsters or monsters with 3/4 of the regular hit points. I don't do it all the time, but it keeps the game running at the pace I want.

Do you change their damage also?

For the past six months I've been running combats with monsters starting at half hit points (their bloodied value becomes half of that number). To balance out that decrease I give monsters a bonus to damage equal to half their level. I don't apply this rule to minions as I'm obviously not cutting their hit points. It has worked out well in terms of game balance and has definitely cut down the length of combat encounters.

Does this +damage apply equally to all attacks? melee, close, range etc?

 

[Rel]

My experience with Earthdawn goes back over a decade and I have yet to really get a look at the latest version so I can't comment there. WFRP2 - I don't even know what that is. If someone wants to enlighten me, I'd be grateful.

WFRP2 is Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2nd edition.

For whoever said that they weren't that keen on the WFRP base setting, I used WFRP2 to do a "Pirates of the Caribbean - Warhammer Style" that was tremendous fun. I used the real world map of the Caribbean and inserted some of the Old World powers in place of their European counterparts that colonized the region.

There was action, intrigue, ships, cannons, undead, lizardfolk, giant dinosaurs. Everything a body could want!

 

[Rechan]

I find it particularly vexing, because I (the DM) love 4e. Adore it. But, my group are either 3e lovers, or one who has his heart set to Rolemaster.

 

[Treebore]

Good for you and your group Lord Vangarel! Fortunately there are plenty of options out there so you should find a good one soon.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

Finally Castles and Crusades is something I have some experience with. It plays just like classic AD&D except without some of the complications. Combat is as easy as it ever was and the SIEGE system is, in my opinion, the ultimate streamlined system. Saving throws - gone and incorporated into the system. Skills and skill points - gone and incorporated into the system. If there's a weakness to this approach, it's that everything is so uniform, but in actual play, it's a dream - provided that system mastery isn't your bag. If it is, then players are likely to get bored. Or to put it another way, if players like tons of combat options and ways to min/max their characters, C&C will get old.

One of our players is more of a system mastery type player than the others so they could well start to see character (abilities) development as limited. Still the test in the next session will be to see which plays as the best combat. We could always add some things back into C&C as it seems very easy to do so.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

Yes, i'm adding new spells from past editions, and the wizard player is writing up some house rules so that he can cast from a wider range of utility spells. Come to think of it, we've reached the end of Keep on the Shadowfell and i don't think anyone has cast a single ritual. They HAVE them, they just don't come up.

Same experience for us. It took ages before the first ritual was cast, the players said they were just too expensive for what they were (compared to previous editions).

 

[Darrin Drader]

We could always add some things back into C&C as it seems very easy to do so.

Well you could do that, but if you add feats back in you're more or less back to 3rd edition.

Not saying that would be a bad thing though.