I think we're done with 4E

[Lord Vangarel]

After the end of our last session our group has pretty much decided that 4E wasn't the game for us. Having given the system 6 months playtime, 1 session a week of 3-5 hours we've started to see a lot of repetition in the system and combats are taking way to long so we're now looking at alternatives.

Some of the things in 4E I think are truly great, for example encounter balance design, and differences in monsters abilities, minions, as well as class balance. I also like some of the powers that non spellcasters get, however we'd started to feel like we were playing a tactical skirmish game with limited options. A couple of the players had reached the stage where every combat was a sequence of similar powers, one was a ranger and used twin shot all the time as it was stat wise the best choice. Also they'd got to the stage where they could spot the exact round a fight changed from going either way to an ok we've won now we just have to spend the next 30 minutes grinding the opponents down.

As regards looking at options I personally don't want to return to 3E, I'm the DM mostly and it's just too much work. We're going to try out three systems in our next session combat wise to see how they play. We're looking for a game where combats are fast, we don't want to spend half the session on every fight and flexibility is a must as one of the player's likes experimenting. The options are Castles and Crusades, WFRP2, and Earthdawn.

We've played WFRP2 before and generally liked it, although I have some reservations regarding the end point of characters careers, everyone seems to end up as a champion. C&C hasn't been played before but is very similar to D&D with less rules, and Earthdawn is a system I've had sitting on my shelf for 20 years and never played but seems similar to D&D in theme.

Anyway just lamenting the seeming demise of our 4E game.

 

[Baumi]

I don't get these kind of complaints. There is nearly no system that gives you so many build in options in a fight than in 4E (most are simply hit, hit, hit). Even if you don't want to use your powers, you still have stunts, terrain features, skill challenges and if all else fails your normal attacks (like the thing that got used all the time in earlier editions ).

I can really understand if anyone doesn't like a system (there wouldn't be a point to have so many different systems if everyone has the same taste), but complaining about that 4E has no options in combat is simply wrong.

P.S.: Sorry about the rant. To be more helpful, try Savage Worlds it's very cheap but complete, gives you many options and has a great stunt system (even non combat-characters can help greatly with taunts and tricks).

C&C is also great fun but I didn't like the unbalanced classes, weapons and hated the different experience charts. But it's very easy to run and you can concentrate on creating flaverfull adventures.

Another vote goes for Gary Gygax's Lejendary Adventure. It doesn't read well but it plays wonderfully.

 

[wedgeski]

Kudos for giving it a good run. I have to say that, all else being equal, I've also learned to spot the turning point of a fight, at which time I tend to handwave the rest of the battle with some small concession to attrition (Healing Surges, basically), if I feel it's relevant, and the players agree. Honestly, I started doing this towards the end of my 3.5E run as well; if anything, it appears to be easier to spot in 4E.

Good luck finding yourself something new to play. Perhaps when 4E is splatted out into infinity, you'll find the variety you're looking for.

 

[Drowbane]

3e would welcome you home, you cheating bastage! (heehee)

Earthdawn is a fun game. You should take it down off the shelf, dust it off and learn the system.

 

[Nebulous]

I have to say that, all else being equal, I've also learned to spot the turning point of a fight, at which time I tend to handwave the rest of the battle with some small concession to attrition (Healing Surges, basically), if I feel it's relevant, and the players agree. Honestly, I started doing this towards the end of my 3.5E run as well; if anything, it appears to be easier to spot in 4E.

So you charge the PCs a Healing Surge for ending the fight early? That's a great idea, i'll have to do that. I have just been killing monsters sooner or starting them with less hit points to avoid the inevitable grind.

 

[roguerouge]

Run modules for 3e. Seriously, there's a ton of good ones. This simple hack saved me from burnout. My player loves it and I have so many starter towns that I don't even need to do much world-building.

 

[jenskot]

So you charge the PCs a Healing Surge for ending the fight early? That's a great idea, i'll have to do that. I have just been killing monsters sooner or starting them with less hit points to avoid the inevitable grind.

That's a great idea!

We've been playing 4E for around 16 sessions (We're almost level 6) and we've been running into many of the problems described by the original poster. I love 4E combat, powers, and especially monsters. But as we level up, combat seems to drag and drag. We play for about 3.5 hours and the last few times I kept track of our rolls. Generally speaking I would say that with 5 players, each person gets to go every 15 minutes, so around 12 rounds a night. The odds on average seem to be 50/50. If we optimize all our bonuses, we usually need around an 9-11 to hit. So out of 12 times, we only do something cool 6 times a night. When you throw in constant condition effects that limit our options, spending move actions to keep getting up from prone or being slowed or weakened and so on, I would say that I would reduce doing cool stuff from 6 to an average for 3-4 times a night.

I really do enjoy playing. But I feel there are some basic tweaks needed that could help speed things up. I'm going to recommend your trick of spending a healing surge when the battle has reached a turning point to end it early. That's a very elegant solution!

 

[Lord Vangarel]

I don't get these kind of complaints. There is nearly no system that gives you so many build in options in a fight than in 4E (most are simply hit, hit, hit). Even if you don't want to use your powers, you still have stunts, terrain features, skill challenges and if all else fails your normal attacks (like the thing that got used all the time in earlier editions ).

I agree the wealth of build options in 4E is amazing. In terms of balance of the classes as I said above we think as a group that 4E has done a great job. The trouble is that the players all started to use the same combinations over and over regardless of what was put against them. Every fight was twin shot or flaming sphere. It's almost as if the strict powers have become a straight jacket.

The hit point grind was something that I'm not too keen on. The players had seen it and as I said had learned to identify almost the exact point when they knew they'd win. Also they all have said for a few weeks now that monsters in 4E are just better than characters.

For information we have 3 players who each played two characters in 4E so we had a Ranger/Paladin, a Fighter/Wizard, and a Cleric/Rogue. That's something else I probably wouldn't do again, one character per player in the future.

I'm not saying we won't come back or keep playing 4E occasionnaly. I've enjoyed much of the game and would certainly look to pinch a lot of the ideas into any other system.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Run modules for 3e. Seriously, there's a ton of good ones. This simple hack saved me from burnout. My player loves it and I have so many starter towns that I don't even need to do much world-building.

That might help. I think it definitely gave our 3E game a longer lifetime.

But I still know that all of our DMs that ran modules (or rather adventure path) prefered converting them over to 4E then continue running them in 3E!

Warhammer sounds like a decent choice. (Though even here: Without the other players knowing, the campaign of one of us turned out to be a D&D 4E game set in the Warhammer Universe, maybe with some serial numbers filed off...)

So, I suppose I can't speak objectively here, if anything our group does at the moment leads to D&D 4. (And if I may note: If we were to play Shadowrun, it would be SR 4E, too. 4 is a magic number at the moment. )

 

[wedgeski]

So you charge the PCs a Healing Surge for ending the fight early? That's a great idea, i'll have to do that. I have just been killing monsters sooner or starting them with less hit points to avoid the inevitable grind.

It entirely depends on what's left, and what threat it represents, but yes, basically. Plus, the players can elect to continue the fight if they feel my 'offer' isn't worth it. Kind of like Deal or No Deal.