4E combat grind but not boring

[Shadeydm]

ShadyDM; I think the comment on your avatar might have influenced Jack99's opinion. It says you are a " skeptic", so it might be natural for people to assume you don't really like the game. I don't mind either way but some people mind a great deal it seems.............

Yes well once upon a time I was a community supporter prior to a pro 4E shift in moderation which quite frankly turned me off of coming here for a while and makes it impossible for me to continue that support. No longer being a community supporter I no longer control the content you refer to.

Regardless I will abstain from further discussion on this topic before I start getting accused of holding bricks in glass houses and such by said moderators.

 

[Mark]

I think you're misunderstanding the use of the term "swingy". It refers to the tendency of an encounter's outcome being determined by single actions or events. The big, bad monster rolling an unlucky 1 on his saving throw against a Save-or-Die effect in the first round of combat is "swingy". The party Cleric being killed (i.e. -10 or below, no chance to recover, dead) by a lucky critical hit from a great axe-wielding orc in the first round of combat is "swingy". Longer combats in 4e are a by-product or adjunct to the combats being less "swingy".

Thank you. I guess I have been misunderstanding that term. I had always thought of the above as a separate phenomenon. I appreciate your patience with me.

I absolutely agree that combats which last more rounds than in 3e are a product of the system. I also recognize it's a problem for some people. In fact, I said both of those things in the post you quoted. My point was that it's not a problem for me. I like the fact that 4e encounters tend to last about double the rounds that my combats in 3e lasted. To me, it's a feature, not a bug because it's part of making the combats depend more on player choices rather than one or two lucky dice rolls.

Hmm. I'm the type of RPGer that likes an equal mix of RPing and Combat in my games and, unfortunately, if the combats are very long, let's say two hours or a bit more, then a single session, let's say four to five hours, needs to either be bookended by RPing or have the first half RPing and wind down the session with one huge combat. That really doesn't feel like the kind of game I prefer, unless the combat is meant to be either a big finale or some sort of milestone. I much prefer for combats to come in under and hour and to get half a dozen in a session with good amounts of RPing in between, sometimes longer sometimes shorter as the players deem necessary (following up hook leads, etc) and as the story develops based off player decisions.

And don't get me wrong, I was a minis wargamer prior to even the invention of D&D, still do lots of that (both large scale and skirmish) and love it greatly but when the combat aspect of an RPG overshadows the RPing so extensively, or even just becomes the primary focus of the RPG, then IMO the RPG could use some rules system fixes/adjustments.

 

[Ourph]

Am I the only one that has seen both longer rounds (at least at low levels) and longer combats in 4E compared to 3.5? It seems like they failed to meet this particular goal.

I'm seeing more rounds (about double what I was used to with 3.5) but the rounds are shorter and the combats take about the same amount of time. That means I'm getting about double the amount of "action" in the same amount of time, which is great.

Hmm. I'm the type of RPGer that likes an equal mix of RPing and Combat in my games and, unfortunately, if the combats are very long, let's say two hours or a bit more, then a single session, let's say four to five hours, needs to either be bookended by RPing or have the first half RPing and wind down the session with one huge combat.

I have to admit, I think 2 hours is too long too. I've never actually had a combat go longer than an hour in 4e and most last around 30 minutes, which is my group's "sweet spot". I can see how the encounter the OP describes could end up taking that long (especially with a group of relatively new players and 2 NPC Clerics for the DM to run) and it doesn't seem like something I'd do in my games specifically because of the time/boring issue. When I say I like "longer" combats, I'm mostly talking in terms of rounds, not real time. I like combats that require around 10-12 rounds to resolve. I like it even more when those 10-12 rounds take around 30-40 minutes of real time to complete.

 

[Allister]

When every monster has a gazillion hit points, of course combat is going to take forever. It seems odd that one of the goals of 4E was faster combats. Am I the only one that has seen both longer rounds (at least at low levels) and longer combats in 4E compared to 3.5? It seems like they failed to meet this particular goal.

It stays relatively consistent is what I noticed. Number of rounds in 3E remain the same, but the time it takes for each round increases as you level in 3E whereas in 4E, number of rounds and length of resolve for said rounds remains the same pretty much across all levels....

As for the grind itself, when people say it takes them 8-12 rounds to resolve a standard encounter, I'm surprised since my group consistently does it in 4-6rounds...and the total time for combat is never more than 20-30 minutes....

And I dont think my group are optimizers experts as most of them only put a 16 in their prime score...Then again, my group of players tend to favour strategy games and seem quicker in spotting optimum battle positions and choosing powers than in the pre-battle optimization.

 

[Jack99]

That appears to be a matter of opinion that is under discussion and there are many people constructively offering solutions to the perceived problem. You should really not be so swift to make such accusations.

Yes, and I was stating my opinion. But since there was like 10 (random numbers ftw) other people agreeing that the length of the encounter was due to the encounter being a very hard one, I fail to see why I am singled out. Did you read my previous posts?

We can see by the numbers that the encounter was a gross overmatch for the party which was the fault of the DM.

The fact that such an overmatch took 2 hours to resolve is at least partially a system issue.

Well, considering they had 2 extra clerics, and that the monsters had more surges than they are supposed to, it's quite normal that it lasts longer than normal combats. The DM made some changes, but those changes affected the duration of the combat. How is that a problem with the system?

Now really, and this I feel is important. I am not claiming there is no issue of grind with 4e. I haven't seen it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I do however feel that in the case presented by the OP, something else is at play. Of course, it could be something else than the DM. It could be slow players. It could be players who do not understand the game yet. But then again, it could also simply be that there was 5 players, a DM with quite a few monsters above the player's level, 2 NPC's (I mean, someone must have been running those), a metric ton of healing on both sides, etc etc.

ShadyDM; I think the comment on your avatar might have influenced Jack99's opinion. It says you are a " skeptic", so it might be natural for people to assume you don't really like the game. I don't mind either way but some people mind a great deal it seems.............

Just to be clear, mate. I couldn't care less if Shadeydm likes 4e or not. As long as I like it and my players like it, it's all good to me. My comment was based on the quote (which clearly stated that he regarded 4e combat to be a grind) and on the many other posts he makes. I have yet to see him post anything positive about 4e. How am I supposed to think otherwise?

 

[Shadeydm]

As for the grind itself, when people say it takes them 8-12 rounds to resolve a standard encounter, I'm surprised since my group consistently does it in 4-6rounds...and the total time for combat is never more than 20-30 minutes....

Interesting but to be quite honest I have no idea how many rounds the battle took, my issue was more with the 2+ hours in real time and my fear (not based on any high level 4E play experience) that this could get worse at higher levels.

But again in my experience there is no way this was a 2+ hour combat in prior editions.

 

[Shadeydm]

I have yet to see him post anything positive about 4e. How am I supposed to think otherwise?

Yes because clearly statements such as I have fun playing the game and I like 4E paladin and that the Swordmages is my favorite 4E class of those which I have played for example are clearly meant as an attack on 4E, a game which I play weekly because I hate it so much /boggle

It seems like putting me on ignore might be in your best interest in light of my "hatred" of 4E...

 

[arcseed]

Just a question: Is there any chance your DM was deliberately overmatching you and giving you a chance to recognise it and run away? Because I think that that is one of the really good things about 4e-- there's enough room for error with the extra hp and such that you have the opportunity to see a situation going bad and try to escape.

 

[Ourph]

But again in my experience there is no way this was a 2+ hour combat in prior editions.

I think you're spot on with this observation. There's no way a group of 2nd level PCs against such a clearly superior force lasts 2 hours in 3.5 or AD&D (barring something really unusual like taking 5 minutes each to resolve the combatants turns). At least, that has been my experience. I think it's somewhat unusual for it to last 2 hours even in 4e, but having 2 Clerics on the PCs' side and a Cleric on the monsters' side in the combat probably contributed heavily to keeping the combat dragging on.

 

[Allister]

Interesting but to be quite honest I have no idea how many rounds the battle took, my issue was more with the 2+ hours in real time and my fear (not based on any high level 4E play experience) that this could get worse at higher levels.

But again in my experience there is no way this was a 2+ hour combat in prior editions.

Thar's what I find shocking...2+ hours to resolve? Still, I can see how this might happen.....

If you are totally unfamiliar with 4e combat and 4e mechanics and it is an overlevelled encounter, then yeah, potentially I could see it reaching an hour.

But 2+? Were people totally unprepared when their turn came up?

A lot of this is due to the actual encounter itself though...

Having 2 PC clerics with an Ogre that actually has 2 Surges? Ogres by themselves are at the outer end of what is possible for a 2nd level character due to their level (6 level difference for an individual monster is exactly the outlying end of the range recommended by the DMG)

That said, the length of combat in 4e for my group more closely matches the length of combat we remember from 1e/2e. When we faced down giants for examples, there was a whole set of misses from the giants parts while we whittled down their HP...