Forked Thread: [Maybe this is where the magic went:] To the magic shop

[Keefe the Thief]

I mean, FR has actually had shopping lists of magic items penned for it in official supplements, as have several other settings.

Yeah, but FR had an actual mail order catalogue where thieves could order stuff for, well, thievery.
Not that i used ubiquituous magic shops / auroras shops in my FR. But a FR without one or two special establishements which sell magic items? Not fantastic enough for me.

 

[jdrakeh]

But a FR without one or two special establishements which sell magic items? Not fantastic enough for me.

One or two shops is fine. Most D&D settings that I've seen (published and home-brewed) don't stop with one or two magic item shops, however

 

[Runestar]

Heck, Waterdeep alone already had 4 magic shops listed, and those are just the "legal" ones. Numerous more can be found in the form of fences and the like...

 

[DEFCON 1]

See, the funny part was that I wasn't referring to the concept of a "magic shop" in of itself. I was referring to the illuminously descriptive picture that Keefe the Thief was using to paint his Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. By coloring his shoppe as a place where "a hideously deformed guy with killer golems hovering behind the counter cackles madly as you part with 1/2 a pound of gold for a shimmering little ring", and other such descriptions... you can regain the sense of mystery and wonder about the concept of magic that so many people were decrying in the thread this was forked from.

Because the fluff was gone from the 3E/4E magical items or because the multi-functionality was no longer present in most items, or because each type of item was standardized in form and function... the "magic" was gone. Which is ONLY true if you are one of the people I referred to above if you only can seem to use that which is given you, written down in one of the books. But as Keefe the Thief proves... so long as you do the work to make your campaign magical, your campaign will BE magical. With or without the books themselves having this "magical fluff" already included in its text.

 

[JeffB]

Haven't read all the responses but I've always hated the magic-mart idea- totally ruins the suspension of disbelief for me. "Hi, I need a wand of missles, a +1 ring of protection, and a couple of hostess cherry pies, please" LAME.

Doesn't bother me a bit in gold box Pool of Radiance or Neverwinter nights or other computer games, but I've never had a magic shop in any of my PnP campaigns regardless of edition. At certain temples, PCs can buy some minor healing salves/potions, that type of thing, but thats it. Items have to be found/stolen- magic item creation is beyond rare as well.

 

[Imaro]

See, the funny part was that I wasn't referring to the concept of a "magic shop" in of itself. I was referring to the illuminously descriptive picture that Keefe the Thief was using to paint his Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. By coloring his shoppe as a place where "a hideously deformed guy with killer golems hovering behind the counter cackles madly as you part with 1/2 a pound of gold for a shimmering little ring", and other such descriptions... you can regain the sense of mystery and wonder about the concept of magic that so many people were decrying in the thread this was forked from.

Because the fluff was gone from the 3E/4E magical items or because the multi-functionality was no longer present in most items, or because each type of item was standardized in form and function... the "magic" was gone. Which is ONLY true if you are one of the people I referred to above if you only can seem to use that which is given you, written down in one of the books. But as Keefe the Thief proves... so long as you do the work to make your campaign magical, your campaign will BE magical. With or without the books themselves having this "magical fluff" already included in its text.

See. IMHO that description does nothing to restore the sense of mystery and wonder about magic items. You know what gave items a sense of wonder, at least to me, in older editions (Pre 3e??)? The fact that I usually had no idea what an item I found could do...until I paid or did a favor to get it researched and identified...and there was always the off chance the item I had so readily grabbed was cursed. Now, in 4e, I spend a few minutes handling an item...and BAM, I know exactly what it is and what it does. So no description is going to make that mysterious or wondrous.

Now before someone comes along and says " The book says nonstandard and cursed items might be harder to identify." Yeah I read that and it still has nothing to do with the base level normal rules for identifying the majority of magic items...which can be done in 5 min or less, by anyone. Add to that the standardization, lack of fluff, balance, placement in the PHB, etc. and yes you get a situation where magic is just blah...numerical bonuses and/or movement effects.

EDIT: In fact 3e does not allow one to identify magic items automatically, and thus it appears 4e is really the only edition that does this.

 

[Cadfan]

For the record, 4e allows you to eliminate magic shops if you want. It even offers two possibilities for replacing them.

Disenchanting magic items and making new ones offers the same exchange rate as a magic shop, so if your objection is the whole economic one of "how does this shop have all this awesome magical gear? Where did it come from? Who made it? How does this shop have inventory with a higher net value than the GDP of the PCs entire nation?" then you can simply skip the shop and let the PCs do things themselves.

Or, you could just not have shops or any other means of selecting your magic items at all. It requires a little more attention, because you have to make sure the PCs find gear when they need it, but it works. Its what I've been doing in my game. Not because I hate shops, but simply because my group hasn't had the time to buy anything or enchant any items.

See. IMHO that description does nothing to restore the sense of mystery and wonder about magic items. You know what gave items a sense of wonder, at least to me, in older editions (Pre 3e??)? The fact that I usually had no idea what an item I found could do...until I paid or did a favor to get it researched and identified...and there was always the off chance the item I had so readily grabbed was cursed.

Seriously?

Your sense of wonder was preserved in 3e because you had to spend an hour and a 100 gp pearl to cast a first level spell, Identify? But in 4e, because you spend an evening and don't cast Identify, its ruined?

Really?

Why?

Here's another possibility:

The magic is gone because you're an old fart.

I mean that in a good way. But, if you've been playing D&D since 1e or 2e, then the same items aren't going to have the mystery and mystique they ddi because you've been playing since 1e or 2e. That's at least 15 years of gaming.

The first bag of holding of your character's career isn't going to hold the same wonder becuase you've had 18 bags of holding in your gaming career.

Nostalgia, baby. It's what took the magic.

This is probably completely true.

I think it explains an awful lot of most edition wars. I mean, I've listened to a person who I know for a fact had once played a character who was an obvious clone of Wolverine translated into Dungeons and Dragons. He was talking down someone else's Drzzt clone. Because, you know, Wolverine was cool, and Drzzt isn't. Or something. More likely, Wolverine was his generation's, Drzzt wasn't.

 

[Imaro]

Seriously?

Your sense of wonder was preserved in 3e because you had to spend an hour and a 100 gp pearl to cast a first level spell, Identify? But in 4e, because you spend an evening and don't cast Identify, its ruined?

Really?

Why?

Nope, read what I actually posted...not what you inferred from my post, it was just one of many choices they made in 4e that added to it. Is that more clear? Or do you want to rephrase and misrepresent what I said some more??

NOTE: This is just one example of why a supposedly small change like that creates ripples. So in D&D 3e/3.5 my illiterate barbarian wasn't going to be able to identify a magical item (scroll, weapon, armor, wand) neither was my fighter who had never seen a spellbook or glyph in his life. In 3.5 this aspect is kept squarely in the hands of those who would know about it...mainly those involved with magic.

Yet for some reason in 4e everyone now understands exactly how to identify what is a magic item, and after looking at it for 2 to 3 minutes, knows exactly what it can do. I mean it seems like it would take someone at least a little studying of the arcane arts to do this...nope it's an innate PC race trait now (or can NPC's, etc. do this as well??)...I mean a feat isn't even necessary to do this...wth??

 

[Cadfan]

Nope, read what I actually posted...not what you inferred from my post, it was just one of many choices they made in 4e that added to it. Is that more clear? Or do you want to rephrase and misrepresent what I said some more??

EDIT: In fact 3e does not allow one to identify magic items automatically, and thus it appears 4e is really the only edition that does this.

Write clearer. I submit to you that my interpretation of what you wrote is the most obvious one available to anyone who opens up this web page and reads the word on the screen.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Imaro, i´m happy for you that not knowing what a magic item did creates mystery and suspense in your campaign. For my players, the fantastic part starts once they know what the thing does. Of course, first they have to talk to the mysterious person at the magic shop.