Can someone explain surpires to me?

[seanrus]

I'm just confused on how surprise works and was wondering how you DMs out there handle it.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The biggest problem I have with surprise is when to start the encounter.

The encounter doesn't start with the first attack roll, it starts with Stealth vs Perception. However, if a stealthy party doesn't notice the other party until too late, the opportunity for stealth vanishes. Also, there are issues about how far ahead to send the scout, etc.

So let's make this easy. We're in a dungeon, so the ranges are very limited. There are four PCs (a rogue, a wizard, a cleric and a fighter) walking down a hallway, coming to a T-shaped intersection. The rogue creeps up ahead, looking around the corner to see if anything's there, while the rest of the party waits silently.

He sees a party of orcs who aren't trying to use stealth. He makes a Stealth check, opposed by the passive Perception of the orcs. (The orcs aren't using active Perception because they aren't looking for anything.)

This is a good time to roll initiative for everyone (even though probably only the rogue will go in the surprise round).

The rogue could summon the rest of the party, but they're not stealthy and will make noise, plus they're not that far behind, so he pulls out his light crossbow and shoots an orc. The orcs didn't make their Perception checks and are surprised. He gets combat advantage against the orc, and so gets +2 to hit (and sneak attack).

First round of combat commences. The rogue (having the highest initiative) probably goes first. The orcs are not surprised and the flat-footed condition from 3.x no longer exists. However, the rogue has the First Strike ability; if he can hit any orc that hasn't acted yet, he'll still get sneak attack.

(Note that even if some of the orcs beat his initiative, if he beat one of their initiatives, he can target that orc and get sneak attack.)

Run combat normally from that point.

Now someone point out all the errors I made; it's a good way for me to learn

 

[RigaMortus2]

(Note that even if some of the orcs beat his initiative, if he beat one of their initiatives, he can target that orc and get sneak attack.)

This is assuming the DM rolls seperately for each orc, rather than just 1 "group" initiative roll.

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm just confused on how surprise works and was wondering how you DMs out there handle it.

Surprise has been nerfed heavily in 4E - you only get a single action to use (a standard action) in the surprise round.

So my easiest advice is to ignore surprise, never have it. At least until you're warmed up as a DM!

 

[Gruns]

Not usually surprised.

I'm just confused on how surprise works and was wondering how you DMs out there handle it.

Just picture the encounter in your head. Would either party be surprised? Most likely not, depending on what they're doing. Guards, for example, should be guarding alertly. So generally, in my encounters, no one is surprised unless there's a very good reason for them to be, such as a party actively sneaking up on another party, but in this case, the rules are pretty clear. (Stealth vs Perception). If a party does manage to surprise another, they simply get a free Standard action.
Later!
Gruns

 

[seanrus]

Ya I haven't been using surprise at all but it takes away from the Rogue and makes some rouge feats meaningless.

Say if the a rogue, a wizard, a cleric and a fighter are in a dungeon and come to a door. It's locked but not stuck. The rogue picks the lock first try and slips into the room should there be a chance for the monsters being surprised depending on what they are doing? If they are :
1) asleep ( or passed out from drinking too much bloodwine)
2)distracted ( they might be playing a game of kick the Halfling)
3)Ready ( just about to go out and find a Halfling so they can play the game above)
4) alert and waiting ( say if they heard the some trying to brake down a locked door) in this case the party should have a chance of being surprised. But there's no table for this. I was thing about making one as follows:
D10 roll on a
1) asleep and all of them would be
3-6) distracted all of them
7-9) readied
10) alert
What do you think of that system

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

This is assuming the DM rolls seperately for each orc, rather than just 1 "group" initiative roll.

Yes. (I was picturing several orc types, and should have been clearer.)

Ya I haven't been using surprise at all but it takes away from the Rogue and makes some rouge feats meaningless.

Say if the a rogue, a wizard, a cleric and a fighter are in a dungeon and come to a door. It's locked but not stuck. The rogue picks the lock first try and slips into the room should there be a chance for the monsters being surprised depending on what they are doing? If they are :
1) asleep ( or passed out from drinking too much bloodwine)
2)distracted ( they might be playing a game of kick the Halfling)
3)Ready ( just about to go out and find a Halfling so they can play the game above)
4) alert and waiting ( say if they heard the some trying to brake down a locked door) in this case the party should have a chance of being surprised. But there's no table for this. I was thing about making one as follows:
D10 roll on a
1) asleep and all of them would be
3-6) distracted all of them
7-9) readied
10) alert
What do you think of that system

That's heavily based on chance (like the 2e morale system). The DM should know if the monsters on the other side are awake or not.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

I'm just confused on how surprise works and was wondering how you DMs out there handle it.

You read p.36 of the DMG?

What they recommend is pretty straightforward. Usually dispense with it unless one of the group is actively hiding. If so, just roll the worst stealth skill of the hiding group against the passive perception of anyone likely to notice (let's say the vanguard with the best perception). If you succeed, you have surprise. A character more than 10 square away can do his own stealth skill and would therefore be treated separately (he could get his surprise round while the rest of the team doesn't).

These guidelines are usually enough.

The only complication I see is the rogue who insists even though he isn't ten square away, he made his own stealth check. Fair enough, if the combat begins in a situation where he can have concealment from his starting location, I'd let him make a stealth check and possibly start the fight hidden. He wouldn't get surprise, though.

 

[Nail]

The only complication I see is the rogue who insists even though he isn't ten square away, he made his own stealth check.

It's a pretty significant complication, IMO.

Stealth has always been a bit tricky. Surprise makes it moreso, since a rogue's sneak attack is based on it.

Currently my understanding is that if the rogue rolled his stealth while fully concealed, and then maintains some kind of concealment once the Bad Guys "come around th' corner", then the rogue compares his rolled stealth check to the Bad Guy's passive perception.

However, if - when the Bad Guys "come around th' corner" - the rogue no longer has concealment, then the rogue is no longer hidden, and no check of any kind is required. He's in plain view, and his stealth check is null and void.

Unless the rogue has the Chameleon utility power....

Etc, etc.

 

[malraux]

I try to limit surprise to no more than 2 creatures. But basically if the party preps well or I have an enemy that has actively worked to sneak up on the party, then 2 creatures get surprise (typically whoever it is that triggers the rest of the group to attack).