Two handed weapon wielding ranger.

[PrecociousApprentice]

In this thread I came up with a template for the ranger that uses a versatile weapon instead of two weapon fighting. I basically removed the Quarry feature. It might underpower this form of ranger a little, but I think that the ranger is obviously the most powerful striker at the moment, and a little nerf won't hurt it that much.

 

[Plane Sailing]

but I think that the ranger is obviously the most powerful striker at the moment, and a little nerf won't hurt it that much.

That's interesting - round our way the current consensus is that the Rogue is the most powerful striker (based primarily on his great 'to hit' and the big sneak attack damage).

Would you say the ranger is the most powerful striker because of twin attack, or for some other reason?

Cheers

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

I would say that it is because of the multiattack powers and the ability to stack static bonuses. This makes it easy to get some pretty astronomical damage. The Rogue can't keep up. Rogue is good, and generally outclasses the warlock, but the ranger is hands down more potent. Taking away the quarry feature won't even them up either.

 

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

If the +1 damage from the versatile property makes the ranger using this house rule too strong at first, then just don't let them gain the damage bonus. Add a quick feat that allows the ranger to get the versatile damage bonus back, and it's, more or less, equivelant to the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I would say that it is because of the multiattack powers and the ability to stack static bonuses.

Basically the weapon enhancement, feat bonus and such? What else?

Cheers!

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

Weapon enhancement
Weapon Focus/Dwarven Weapon Training
Two Weapon Fighting
Strength Mod (Not Twin Strike)
Pit fighters can add Wisdom Mod
Stormwarden adds some nasty damage
Scimitar Dance adds Dex on a miss (yes, you get a lot of misses if you get a lot of attacks, and it brings up the average because even your misses hurt)
Hammer Rhythm adds Constitution on a miss (same as above)

You won't have all of these things at once, but it adds up.

So two different atributes adding to a big multiattack enhanced by weapon focus and two weapon fighting can add a ton of damage each attack. At higher levels, this can be 17-20 or more damage per attack. Make that six or seven attacks in a round, with a 1d0 weapon and a 1d8 Quarry, and you got in the neighborhood of 200-300 damage. Since this is multiple attacks, it can be divided up between up to seven or so enemies, or concentrated on one. Wizards can dish out big damage as well, but it isn't this big, and it is split up between a lot of enemies.

Multiattacks are kinda broke. Just like last edition.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Thanks for the helpful breakdown. I can see Pit Fighter being attractive as Wisdom is quite an important secondary stat for Rangers (I've got a funny vision of Clerics being particularly good pit fighters though. Fear the Nuns of Fury!).

Scimitar dance sounds better for an archer ranger than a TWF ranger in many ways, as it takes advantage of the maxed out stat. Hammer Rhythm likewise isn't a primary TWF stat, although it is desirable.

Make that six or seven attacks in a round, with a 1d0 weapon and a 1d8 Quarry

I guess I've not looked at the ranger powers as much as I thought I had - I thought they topped out at 2-3 attacks, apart from the (erratta'd) Cascade of Blades, but maybe I'm wrong - I'd benefit from any clarification you could bring there?

For a scimitar dance TWF he is using a 1d8 weapon rather than a 1d10 weapon of course, and the hunters quarry only counts once per round so multiple attacks help to land the hunters quarry but won't multiply it up (thank goodness!).

I wonder what an average twin scimitar ranger might look like?

[sblock]
Using standard array as a base, and putting him just into Paragon levels. Elf seems a good starting choice. I've added the race and level boosts in so you can see where they go:

Str 16+1+1+1 = 19
Con 12+1 = 13
Dex 13 +2+1 = 18
Int 11+1 = 12
Wis 14 +2+1 = 17
Cha 10+1 = 11

His feats include:
Weapon focus scimitar (+2 damage)
Multiclass to fighter (so he can get Pit Fighter)
Two weapon fighting (+1 damage to main weapon only)
Power Attack (+4 damage on a hit, and if I miss I do damage with scimitar dance anyway)
Lethal Hunter (so hunters quarry does d8's)
anything else (perhaps two weapon defence?)

paragon feat:
scimitar dance (+4 damage on a miss, no other modifiers apply)

Pit Fighter:
Doesn't get his pit fighter wisdom damage until 16th level, so I'll not use that yet. He will be able to bump his Wis by another point to 18 by that time.
Every other encounter he can use an action point for 'Extra Damage Action' so he can add +5 damage to up to two standard action attacks that turn, so I'll include that as an option.

We would expect him to have a +3 scimitar at this point, and two plain +3 scimitars seem well within the bounds.

Str +4, magic +3, focus +2, power attack +4, TWF +1 on main weapon.

So, this ranger would get 1d8+14 on a hit with his primary weapon, 1d8+13 with his off hand weapon. He would do 8 damage on each miss.

His best at-will is probably twin attack, where he could do between 8 (both miss), 1d8+10+2d8 (one hit) and 2d8+10+2d8 (both hit)

His best encounter powers give him two attacks (e.g. claws of the griffon, cut and run). His best Dailies likewise (Attacks on the Run, Jaws of the Wolf)

His most damaging possible attack would probably be to burn an action point for 'Extra Damage Action' and do Attacks on the Run and then Jaws of the Wolf.

Scimitar dance doesn't come into this, because they are half damage on a miss attacks.

So if he hits he does 3d8+19 + 3d8+18 + 2d8+19 + 2d8+18 +2d8 damage.

A total of 12d8+74 (86-170, average 128, 64-ish if they all miss). More if there are any criticals in there, since the scimitar is a high-crit weapon.

Whew! That is his maximum Nova option (action point and two dailies).

By 16th level he will get an extra +1 from Str and +4 from Wis on all his attacks. His Nova would be using the erratt'd Blade Cascade (is that max 5 attacks now?) and Attacks on the Run.

[/sblock]

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

I guess I was thinking of Follow Up Blow. It gives you an extra attack on each enemy you hit. I was thinking that it was an extra attack on each hit, not on each enemy that is hit. That would change things I guess. I also thought that there was another one similar to that, but there isn't. So looks like max of 6 attacks against one enemy. Still good. Can still add around 120 damage or so. And you can add on a couple of powers that add Wis mod to damage as well, maybe giving an extra 40 or so damage.

It has been a while since I systematically looked at the ranger powers. I have mostly just used the low levels since about July, and hadn't factored the eratta on the quarry or Blade Cascade. Oops.

 

[Smeelbo]

I'm sorry, but perhaps I misunderstand. If I read correctly, Two Blade Fighting Style allows you to "wield a one-handed weapon in your off-hand as if it were an off-hand weapon," and all versatile weapons I have ever seen are "one-handed weapons." Therefore, a Ranger could wield two versatile weapons, one in each hand. I would prefer to wield two versatile weapons, rather than one. The +1 damage for wielding it two-handed pales in comparison.

Or is there something I am missing?

Smeelbo

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

With the wording of the powers, when wielding one weapon as I described would allow you to attack twice with that weapon. And get the +1 damage. Just different description than wielding two weapons.

The thing is, there is no reason to think that wielding two weapons should let you attack more than wielding one weapon. We have just internalized that D&Dism until we all think that it must be like some law of physics or something.

You did miss the intent. It is not your fault. It is a D&Dism that runs so deep that it seems only natural for it to be that way. I just think that we could keep most of the mechanics of the ranger the way that they are written, just allow them to use only one weapon two handed instead of two weapons one handed.