D&D 4E Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign - Heroic tier (finished)

[Rel]

Awesome write-up as usual. I can totally hear Piratecat doing the "cultured woman's voice".

This is a really good example of something that it's difficult for a GM to do: Put in some powerful combatants on both sides of a fight without the PC's feeling marginalized by the BBGG doing the "heavy lifting". In this case you sent the War God after the demons but it didn't get rid of them. It fought off stage (and lost) to even nastier stuff while the PC's had to deal with its original targets. That is tricky and kudos for pulling it off.

 

[AJCarrington]

Just wanted to post a quick note commenting how great this thread is and how much I've been enjoying reading about the exploits of the group.

Thanks to all; very much looking forward to future sessions!!

AJC

 

[KidCthulhu]

I think what really tipped the scales (no pun intended) in our parley with Cultured Broad was just after she threw down the War God's head. She asked how many of us were dead. We all replied "none" together, followed by variations on "not even hurt", "feeling fine" in an upbeat (and honest) manner. That really threw her. She thought we were bluffing.

She wasn't to know we were fine, but out of potions and healing surges. "Fine" in that scenario was a less renewable position than it had been before.

 

[Rel]

(no pun intended)

I believe this to be a falsehood.

 

[Piratecat]

I had originally expected a momentous battle with one PC fighting against the hordes and using the shield guardian as a hit point reserve. The actual result may have been more satisfying.

For the record, the cultured woman introduced herself as "Aline, consort of Xiras." Xiras is known to be a dragonborn adventurer exiled from Floodford several years ago after he ended up being the sole survivor of three different adventuring parties. Did he kill them himself, or betray them? No one could ever prove anything, but Xiras was informed that his welcome had expired.

And you'll notice what I'm doing here, following the old adventure design theory of "narrow - wide - narrow." The dog-gobblers adventure was fairly linear. This was less so. And now the PCs have a number of different directions to go in. Follow up on the maker's mark from all the weapons? Investigate Xiras? Figure out how the well-spoken lizardman translator knew Cobalt? These and more. I'll flowchart them out, with a couple of key points. Then once they pick one, I'll expand it.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Hehe, I do something similar when DMing. My method is more "spider-web" like, initially lots and lots of paths to take (so the strings on the web), and when they go down one path. That narrows down to a single point (where the strings meet), then flares out again.

I really like using that visualization, since well I can actually visualize it. I use bring scraps of paper to map out possible routes they may go, where it could lead, what would branch off, etc. By having it written out too I find it saves work with future ideas since can take a path/plot hook not taken and use it elsewhere.

I run my games like a mystery plot lots of the time. So I use separate colours for "main plot" strings and points. So, if their on a non-plot string, and reach a plot point. Well they get to unravel part of the plot, whether they choose to follow the plot string from then onward. Up to their own choices.

It is time consuming at times to draw it all out. But good heavens does it ever cut down on headaches with being a DM.

 

[Joshua Randall]

- Logan’s player pointed out something after the game: there are some rogue powers with “save ends” effects that would be better if they were just “until the end of your next turn.”

Not just rogue powers -- there are quite a few like that. It's bad design.

A fix I have been contemplating would look something like this:

Hit: blah blah blah and impose this status effect (save ends).
...Aftereffect: same status effect (save ends).
Miss: impose this status effect until the end of your next turn.

Now, on a hit, you are guaranteed at least the same duration* of debuffing as if you had missed -- if the monster makes its first save, the aftereffect kicks in, and it is still debuffed for at least one more round.

If you miss, the monster is debuffed for one round as usual.

* Actually, slightly more. Suppose the initiative order is as follows:

15 the PC
10 the monster
5 someone else

On 15, the PC attacks the monster with the power. On a miss, the monster will be debuffed until 15 on the next round.

On a hit, the monster will definitely be debuffed on its turn at 10, will still be debuffed next round at 15, and will continue to be debuffed on its turn at 10 in the next round. Then, depending on its save, the debuff may or may not continue.

 

[Aravis]

A fix I have been contemplating would look something like this:

Hit: blah blah blah and impose this status effect (save ends).
...Aftereffect: same status effect (save ends).
Miss: impose this status effect until the end of your next turn.

It seems to me that is overcompensating, as you are making those powers require two saves on a hit. Wouldn't it be better to have the aftereffect go until the end of your next turn

That way you still get a minimum of one round of benefit from the power, but a second save is not required.

--Aravis

 

[Storminator]

Not just rogue powers -- there are quite a few like that. It's bad design.

It's not necessarily a bad design. It trades one round of certainty for a riskier possibility of higher payoff.

Save ends effects are pretty weak when the guy makes his save. But they're pretty good if they last for 3 or 4 rounds. Very likely decisive.

PS

 

[Joshua Randall]

It seems to me that is overcompensating, as you are making those powers require two saves on a hit. Wouldn't it be better to have the aftereffect go until the end of your next turn

It's not necessarily a bad design. It trades one round of certainty for a riskier possibility of higher payoff.

I guess it depends on the original power.

If it was one of those powers that simply said, "Hit: impose a status effect (save ends)", then I'm inclined to agree with Storminator.

However, if it was one of those powers that originally read, "Hit: impose a status effect (save ends); Miss: impose a status effect until the end of your next turn", then the power really needs some kind of fix in place so that hitting isn't worse than missing 55% of the time.

So, either an Aftereffect with (save ends) or an Aftereffect until the end of your next turn would work.