RAI: Pinning a Dragon's Mouth Shut

pawsplay · Feb 14, 2009

I think I might make holding the mouth shut a new grapple action, maybe at -4. If you win, no biting that turn, and if it chooses to breath, you get to place the template.

Dannyalcatraz · Feb 15, 2009

Most of the visual depictions of dragonbreath that I've seen involve the dragon opening its mouth. On occasion, some artists have shown some "breath" escaping the nostrils, but usually in miniscule amounts (like a firebreather snorting a tiny jet of flame capable of lighting a campfire, but not immolating a huge area of effect).

I'd either allow someone who has successfully shut a dragon's mouth to prevent its breathing or perhaps reduce its damage by...75%?

Thurbane · Feb 15, 2009

I'd let a successful pin lower the save DC by 2, assuming that the dragon could still breathe though it's nostrils...

s-dub · Feb 15, 2009

Can you CDG a pinned opponent?

Someone in the thread said you could but the wording on pin says you're not helpless. Also, when pinned does your effective dex drop to 0, thus granting a -5 to AC (assuming dex 10+)?

Kask · Feb 16, 2009

StreamOfTheSky said:
Considering in real life people wrestle alligators (or was it crocodiles?) by successfully holding their mouths shut so they can't bite, it seems reasonable to at least prevent bite attacks. The breath weapon one is a bit trickier, I really am not sure if I'd allow that...

Right. If the relative size between the man & dragon were similar as between the aforementioned man vs. alligators, sure. Otherwise, no way.

Elethiomel · Feb 16, 2009

Kask said:
Right. If the relative size between the man & dragon were similar as between the aforementioned man vs. alligators, sure. Otherwise, no way.

Okay. I guess you don't allow people to seriously damage dragons with swords either, since such fantastically huge beasts covered with scales cannot have their internal organs reached by 4-foot pieces of metal.

The size difference is represented by modifiers to the grapple check.

StreamOfTheSky · Feb 16, 2009

Elethiomel said:
Okay. I guess you don't allow people to seriously damage dragons with swords either, since such fantastically huge beasts covered with scales cannot have their internal organs reached by 4-foot pieces of metal.

The size difference is represented by modifiers to the grapple check.

Exactly, just as the huge size and tick hide is represented as the massive nat armor bonus. I didn't say a size limit because there shouldn't be one. For one thing, you cannot start a grapple with something more than one size bigger than you anyway, so this can't be used offensively if the gigantic foe doesn't want to grapple. Secondly, if it grapples you, and you have such an amazing grapple mod that you can actually pin the thing to begin with, why is it such a stretch that you can prevent it from biting?

s-dub said:
Someone in the thread said you could but the wording on pin says you're not helpless. Also, when pinned does your effective dex drop to 0, thus granting a -5 to AC (assuming dex 10+)?

Ok, to answer these questions. Pinned does not make you helpless. Your effective dex does not drop, though you do lose dex to AC against other attackers, just as in a regular grapple. You would also be prone, which should add those modifiers to the equation. Reflex saves while pinned were always odd for me, never sure what the right way to rule is. It's hard or impossible to roll out of the way of a fireball, yeah. But you're also getting some cover from the guy on top of you. (Which wouldn't help against spells like Earthquake, granted). And typically, he wants to avoid it, too. If he doesn't, like a red dragon pinning you so an ally can fireball you, maybe you should auto-fail, or at least have to win an opposed grapple check just to make the reflex save at all. This is completely houserule territory, though.

Back to the pinned =/= helpless thing,check out Book of Vile Darkness on execution for some rules that COMPLETELY go against the RAW.

(Says you can attempt to execute a pinned foe, and if you fail the check, you "merely" CDG him, something you can typically only do when someone IS helpless. I really want to make a greatsword-wielding executioner some day. Needs a grapple monkey partner, though.)

For more rules on what you may be looking for, check out Justicar in C.Warrior. He can do things like hog-tie or apply manacles while grappling/pinning. Class would make a great Inspector Zenigata.

Kask · Feb 17, 2009

Elethiomel said:
Okay. I guess you don't allow people to seriously damage dragons with swords either,

Umm, what?

I allow a man to possibly pick up a normal sized alligator. I don't allow the guy to pick up a huge dragon. Get it?

Elethiomel · Feb 18, 2009

Kask said:
Umm, what?

I allow a man to possibly pick up a normal sized alligator. I don't allow the guy to pick up a huge dragon. Get it?

Oh, so we're talking about picking them up now. I thought we were talking about grappling.

The rules disallow initiating a grapple with anything more than 1 size category larger than you.

The rules do not disallow winning a grapple against anything more than 1 size category larger than you.

Why do you think the rules make this distinction? It would certainly be easier to phrase it in a way that disallows both.