D&D 4E Paladins - The first 4e class to fail

Does anyone have any experience with a Str Palladin?.

I do,

we have one in our game, she has excellent attacks. The only other front line warrior is a barbarian so she shines pretty well.

She has excellent AC so can sit in the thick of it and come out with only a few scratches. That makes the Mark particuarally good as she targets the leader or the best hitter of the enemy and then they are locked with her and the barbarian reaps pain out on everyone else.

Never seen a CHA paladin at that level. But it wouldn't work in our game because we only have one defender, so you need the In your face melee approach.
 

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How? Doesn't the cleric heal?
The Cleric only gets two Healing Words per combat... the Paladin gets Lay on Hands based on his Wis mod. A Wis-Paladin may be able to throw out four or five minor action heals during the course of a battle. Heals, I might add, that don't require the target to spend a surge. The Cleric only gets two.
Or, at least, the Clerics I play with only get two, because they're too thick to take other healing powers. Yeah, I've played with some lousy Clerics.
Still, Paladins can make absolutely stellar emergency battlefield medics, if they so desire.
 
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I would still think that the cleric is a better healer (as it should be), even when compared with an abnormally wise paladin. Because even if the paladin can heal more times in a single combat, the cleric can heal twice *per encounter*. That means that if you have more than one encounter per day, the cleric gives more healing. Also, i've noticed that the additional +xd6+wis hit points healed make a big difference in healing output.
 

The Cleric only gets two Healing Words per combat... the Paladin gets Lay on Hands based on his Wis mod.

Er... per day. Unless you have a terrible case of 15 Minute Workdayitis, the cleric should come out ahead. And "four or five" (Wis mod) heals means you poured an 18 or 20 into Wis* - reasonable at high level, but nuts at the start unless you found a Str/Wis or Cha/Wis race. ;)

The Paladin is a good secondary leader, but I suspect something's up.

*) Did I miss any feats that give extra Lay On Hands? All I found in the Compendium was Healing Hands which adds to the amount healed per Hand Layed On.
 
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The Cleric only gets two Healing Words per combat... the Paladin gets Lay on Hands based on his Wis mod. A Wis-Paladin may be able to throw out four or five minor action heals during the course of a battle. Heals, I might add, that don't require the target to spend a surge. The Cleric only gets two.
Or, at least, the Clerics I play with only get two, because they're too thick to take other healing powers. Yeah, I've played with some lousy Clerics.
Still, Paladins can make absolutely stellar emergency battlefield medics, if they so desire.

At around 4 battles per day, the cleric in my campaign uses his healing word 8 times per day. How does your paladin get 26 wis without sucking?

Also please not that while paladins heal a surge, the cleric heals much more. For example, the 12th level cleric heals around 3d6+11(? ballpark) on top of the healing surge. So not only can he heal more times, but he can heal around twice the hit points from the same amount of surges.
 

What I noticed.. the Paladin as it is set up in the book isn't being all it can be. And works best with another class that gives it comparable powers.

I find that merging the Paladin with a Cleric is a great combination. That to me, makes it feel very much like a power house, as it's supposed to be. And is dropping heals when things get dicey.

By the same token, one could in theory always go Fighter and take advantage of Strength based attacks that focus less on healing and more on damage.

It's all a matter of perspective.

As a stand alone class, it's alright. And I'm certain it will really explode into a real shining beacon with Divine power down the road.

Over all.. I like this build for a melee Paladin who is still kicking tail and healing his allies when things get nasty.

(Ignore the gear in a sense, this is just what I projected as a DM for such a character in a campaign I'm running.)

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Mythbuster, level 11
Dragonborn, Paladin, Hospitaler

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 11, Dex 11, Int 9, Wis 15, Cha 19.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 17, Con 10, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 14.


AC: 28 Fort: 24 Reflex: 20 Will: 22
HP: 86 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 21

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion, Insight, Diplomacy, Intimidate.

FEATS
1: Weapon Proficiency (Waraxe)
2: Initiate of the Faith
4: Novice Power
6: Weapon Focus (Axe)
8: Acolyte Power
10: Adept Power
11: Healing Hands

POWERS
1, At-Will: Holy Strike
1, At-Will: Valiant Strike
1, Encounter: Piercing Smite
1, Daily: Paladin's Judgment
2, Utility: Sacred Circle (retrained to Cure Light Wounds at Acolyte Power)
3, Encounter: Invigorating Smite (retrained to Healing Strike at Novice Power)
5, Daily: Martyr's Retribution (retrained to Consecrated Ground at Adept Power)
6, Utility: Wrath of the Gods
7, Encounter: Thunder Smite (retrained to Strengthen the Faithful at Novice Power)
9, Daily: Crown of Glory (retrained to Divine Power at Adept Power)
10, Utility: Turn the Tide (retrained to Mass Cure Light Wounds at Acolyte Power)

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Healer's Brooch +2, Recoil Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Helm of Opportunity (heroic tier), Boots of the Fencing Master (heroic tier), Healer's Sash (paragon tier), Symbol of Life +2, Radiant Waraxe +3, Reinforcing Layered Plate Armor +2
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
 

Does anyone have any experience with a Str Palladin?

For me, the only real weakness of the class is that the Cha option seems like a no-brainer compaired to the Str option...

This is, for me, the worst problem of the class. The Strength build looks like an afterthought. Charisma Paladins are fully supported and have access to all features, while Str Paladins sacrifice at least one of their main features for the privilege of getting decent basic attacks!

Yes, it is possible to make Str Paladins, but unless they are Dragonborn (from what I read here, most are), they will be forced to sacrifice something important: either their mark (the most important characteristic in a defender) or the secondary (Wis-based) effect in most of their powers. They really should have given an alternate, Str-based Divine Challenge. And Strength powers for every level, for that matter.

But I really believe they would have been better off designing Paladins as a class with a single main ability score (Cha) and two builds with different secondary abilities (Str and Wis).
 

Str Paladins sacrifice at least one of their main features for the privilege of getting decent basic attacks!

Note that "decent basic attacks" mean "decent opportunity attacks". Let's compare:

A monster ignoring a 1:st level 10 Str, 18 Cha Paladin eats:
-2 to hit
7 radiant damage
If moving past the Paladin, an OA with little chance to hit without HBO

A monster ignoring a 1:st level 18 Str, 10 Cha Paladin eats:
-2 to hit
3 radiant damage
If moving past the Paladin, an OA that we'll say has about 50% hit chance. With a greatsword or bastard sword, that means 1d10+4 damage=9 average damage=4 average damage after halving due to miss chance.

So, same total damage, but the Straladin is less sticky than the Fighter, so maybe he ends up as a slightly worse defender.
 

I think the main problem with the so-called "MAD" classes is that people ignored the advice in the PHB.

PHB p90
Paladins start with two common builds: the avenging paladin and the protecting
paladin.
The problem is that many players seem to think that there is a third build. What I like to call the "But why can't I do everything" Paladin. Or Cleric. Or Ranger. Or Warlock. While some classes like the Fighter and the Wizard can go through life concentrating on one Attack stat, other classes have more difficulty doing so. In those cases, it's best to just pick one stat and stick with it.

Yes, there is no Strength power at level 9...I know. However, I'm betting that will be fixed in Divine Power. It sucks that you have to wait awhile, but I'm sure that most DM's would give you some leeway to change one of the Charisma powers to a Strength one. Or go MC Fighter and take a 9th level Fighter Daily. Victorious Surge would be a great choice, and it's even a free heal!

Plus, if you actually read the Avenging Paladin build write up it says the following...

PHB p90
Choose
Strength as your highest ability score, since your most
damaging attacks are based on Strength. Charisma
should be your second-best ability score, and Wisdom
your third. Consider wielding a big two-handed
weapon such as a greatsword or greataxe, and choose
powers that deliver the highest amount of damage.
In our party we have two Clerics, a Fighter and a Paladin. Our Paladin is a Greataxe wielding Dragonborn that followed this build write up practically to the letter. Does he heal a lot? No. He only has a 12 WIS. I think that's a little too low, and that an 18/16/14 STR/CHA/WIS might've been better...but it's his choice (You could go 18/14/14 with a Human easily, and still have 12 left over for INT or CON). The point though is that he's able to do okay DC damage, is really good with the STR powers and has some limited healing capacity that's not needed as much because we other primary healers. He doesn't try to do everything at once, and because of that he's very effective.

As the primary Defender it's my job to do the marking are really try to slow down the enemy. I wear Scale and use a Heavy Shield, so I'm actually a point ahead of him...which is kind of good because it means he's a slightly more attractive target than I am. He does a little bit more damage than I do because he uses a two-hander, but I can mark and lock down more targets. So he does a great job of being the harder hitter, but less armored, Defender and attracts a lot of attention. Between the two of us, we make a good team...and that's what most Pally's are really good at. They're good at being the secondary Defender that's paired with another Defender. IMO I think that Fighters are probably the best single Defenders (generally speaking, depends on party makeup) but that any combination of two Defenders will be effective because they play to different strengths. The Pally is great because he can forgo a shield and pick up a two-hander and be right there in terms of AC with the Guardian Fighter

One last thing... While the book in both builds recommends WIS as the tertiary stat, I don't think this is always the case. I think you can make a very good STR/WIS or CHA/WIS Pally and be fine. Alternatively you can go STR/CHA/WIS as long as you keep your priorities straight and don't try to do EVERYTHING at once. Because 4e is more cooperative and more about the party working together you don't need to have these classes that can do everything. What you need is a group of 4+ specialists in diverse roles tying everything together to work as a cohesive unit. It's the whole idea of wanting to be a generalist that ruins a lot of builds (see, for example, our party Ranger that wants to be able to do both Ranged and Melee combat...and therefore can't hit at either of them). Specialize your character, pick one or two things you want to do, and then stick with that.
 
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At around 4 battles per day, the cleric in my campaign uses his healing word 8 times per day. How does your paladin get 26 wis without sucking?

Also please not that while paladins heal a surge, the cleric heals much more. For example, the 12th level cleric heals around 3d6+11(? ballpark) on top of the healing surge. So not only can he heal more times, but he can heal around twice the hit points from the same amount of surges.
I am not in any way claiming that a paladin is a better healer. I'm saying they make very good secondary healers.
I also thinking throwing out heals, taking damage in place of allies, giving allies saving throws, and miscellaneous 'buffing' effects could fit nicely under the Defender role, provided people were a little more fluid in their understanding of it, instead of just bowing to the Altar of Stickiness.
 

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