D&D 4E Paladins - The first 4e class to fail

One other thing on the MAD issue. Part of the problem is the obsession in the community for qualifying for certain "awesome" weapon feats. Feat like HBO, Hammer Rhythm or the Mastery feats. These feats aren't what I would call "necessary" for a class to function, they're just good feats if you can get them. The ability score costs are high, which is what leads to MAD issues.

Where the Mastery Feats are concerned, you can easily forgo them if you take a Jagged weapon. Of course, most people would say to this "But oh noes, where's my Bloodclaw???", and that's part of the problem. Once you get away from certain "must-have" enhancements, you can just pick up a Jagged weapon (which are pretty good BTW) and still get your increased crit range.

As for things like HBO...again, it's not necessary for a PC to function. Going with a Straladin build and taking a two-handed Jagged Greataxe or Jagged Executioner's Axe might be a good choice. You don't need Deadly Axes anymore because your weapon is already high crit. Therefore, you don't have to worry about pumping CON to qualify for that, or the Mastery feat.

Or why not go with Polearms? Pick up something like the Greatspear. It's a +3 to hit, like the Heavy Blades, gives you reach and allows you pick up Polearm Gamble, which is a very powerful feat. It's especially good for a Paladin because now you can DC a target, attack him from 2 squares away, then shift back one square. Now he can either attack someone else and take DC damage, or approach you and possibly have to eat an OA! Granted, there's no Mastery feat there, but you still have options if that increased crit ranged is important. You could just wait until later and drop the Greatspear in favor of a Glaive, which is polearm/heavy blade, and thus can be enchanted with Jagged. It's lower damage, and only a +2, but it would work if you really like critting on a 19.

See, to me, I see a LOT of options for weapon choices and enchantments. If you limit yourself to thinking that only a certain couple of choices will work, that can hamper your build because you have to focus stat points into stats you don't need...like DEX. For Fighters, this is easy because they only have one primary attack Stat, and their secondary is based on what weapons they choose. They're also supposed to be the masters at using weapons, which is why they can get a permanent +1 and are trained in every non-superior weapon there is (Pally's are not trained in military ranged, for example). On the other hand, Fighters can't heal or channel divine energy to incinerate undead, heal allies, buff allies and whatever else all those Channel Divinity powers do. So again, you need to realize the limitations of the class and work with them. Don't try to force Heavy Blades on the build when it's going to hurt you, just use something that fits with your stats.
 

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One other thing on the MAD issue. Part of the problem is the obsession in the community for qualifying for certain "awesome" weapon feats. Feat like HBO, Hammer Rhythm or the Mastery feats. These feats aren't what I would call "necessary" for a class to function, they're just good feats if you can get them. The ability score costs are high, which is what leads to MAD issues.
I definitely agree with this.

Unfortunately, there aren't a TON of good feats for the paladin right now, so people focus in on feats that were pretty clearly designed for the martial classes. I think this will die down a bit as the game expands.
 

Note that "decent basic attacks" mean "decent opportunity attacks".
So, same total damage, but the Straladin is less sticky than the Fighter, so maybe he ends up as a slightly worse defender.

I am aware of how important OAs are for a defender. I dislike that they are the only benefit of a class build (Straladin) that is otherwise much worse than the alternative. I think Paladins really, really should have an Intelligent Blademaster-like feat, but right now they can't because that would completely kill the Straladin.

Plus, if you actually read the Avenging Paladin build write up it says the following...

(...) Our Paladin is a Greataxe wielding Dragonborn that followed this build write up practically to the letter. Does he heal a lot? No. He only has a 12 WIS. (...). The point though is that he's able to do okay DC damage, is really good with the STR powers (...)

That character is probably effective, but 'really good with the STR powers'? A lot of Paladin powers have abilities that key off Wisdom, and if you sacrifice that stat, they'll be little more than pretty basic attacks. Holy Strike doesn't really cut it with Wis 12, unless you fight lots of undead.

My point is, going Strength you risk either losing what makes your powers special (with low Wis) or having a bad mark (with low Cha). Dragonborns, and maybe Humans can pull this off, and maybe find a satisfactory middle path. For the rest of races, it's probably one of the most difficult specs to build in the game (right there with the Star Warlock).
 

One other thing on the MAD issue. Part of the problem is the obsession in the community for qualifying for certain "awesome" weapon feats. Feat like HBO, Hammer Rhythm or the Mastery feats. These feats aren't what I would call "necessary" for a class to function, they're just good feats if you can get them. The ability score costs are high, which is what leads to MAD issues.

I basically have to disagree with the general direction of this paragraph.

I play a paladin whom I want to be a good swordsman. Now to simulate this mechanically I need these feats for this character - not these feats per se but rather each and every relevant feat relating to swords. These feats are also highly desirable for defenders - pumping AC, honing the OA, delivering mighty blows. You can say all you like that they're not necessary (and I agree in a strict sense) but they remain highly desirable for certain archetypes which the paladin class encompasses.

Now you've got a straladin character build needing minimums of str16, con10, dex13, int8, wis12/14, cha 14/12. We're talking about boosting 4-5 stats, while the rogue & wizard can get away with 3. The 4E general case of mild MAD (which again, I agree with) gets pretty chronic when the character concept needs so many minimum stats. Anyway, as a human that leaves 3 points in the kitty and the +2 racial bonus to spend. However you look at that there is not much left over to customise the character so they're not so clone-like. If you swapped out swords for axes/hammers/etc you'd just rejig the points in dex elsewhere.

I think the paladin has been too MAD for a few too many editions now and it's long overdue this frustrating design philosophy ended.
 

Does anyone have any experience with a Str Palladin?

For me, the only real weakness of the class is that the Cha option seems like a no-brainer compaired to the Str option...

We have a Strength Paladin in our group.

Ghesh Nodar. Paladin Level 7.
Male Dragonborn. Lawful Good. Deity Bahamut.
Stats (including racial/level)
STR 20 CON 14 DEX 10
INT 10 WIS 15 CHA 10

Defences (including items)
AC: 24 FORT: 20 REF: 17 WILL: 17
Speed 5 (run 7)
Senses
Passive insight 20
Passive perception 15
Hit points/Healing
Max HP: 70 Bloodied: 35 Surge value: 19 Surges per day: 12
Basic Attacks
Melee: Bstd Sword ATT +12 vs AC, d10 +7
Ranged: Thrown Axe ATT +10 vs REF, d6 +5

Skills (trained)
Diplomacy: 8 Heal: 10 Insight: 10 Intimidate: 10 Religion: 8
Feats:
Weapon Prof (Bstd Sword), Weapon Focus (Heavy blades), Initiate Of The Faith, Toughness

Racial features
Dragonborn Frenzy, Draconic Heritage
Class features
Channel Divinity, Divine Challenge, Lay On Hands (2/day)
Languages Known
Common, Draconic.
Powers
At will: Holy Strike, Valiant Strike
Encounter: Radiant Smite, Staggering Smite, Dragon Breath (Acid, Str), Thunder Smite
Daily: Paladins Judgement, Martyrs Retribution, Healing Word (Cleric multi)
Utility: Astral Speech, One Heart One Mind

Magic Items
Boots of Free Movement (L6), Bstd Sword +1 (Keegans Blade L5), Bstd Sword +1 (Luckblade L3), Shield of Protection (L3), Amulet of Health +1 (L3), Plate +1 (Dwarven L2), Potion of Healing (Lvl 5) x3, Potion of Clarity (Lvl 5), Gravespawn Potion (Lvl 5)
Rituals N/A

He intends to switch some powers out using mutliclassing, because some levels offer absolutely nothing for a Strength Paladin (hopefully this will be resolved in Divine Power). He seems to do reasonably well, although I wouldn't say he is as effective as the Fighter as a Defender, but he's good as a secondary healer.
 

I basically have to disagree with the general direction of this paragraph.

I play a paladin whom I want to be a good swordsman. Now to simulate this mechanically I need these feats for this character - not these feats per se but rather each and every relevant feat relating to swords. These feats are also highly desirable for defenders - pumping AC, honing the OA, delivering mighty blows. You can say all you like that they're not necessary (and I agree in a strict sense) but they remain highly desirable for certain archetypes which the paladin class encompasses.

Now you've got a straladin character build needing minimums of str16, con10, dex13, int8, wis12/14, cha 14/12. We're talking about boosting 4-5 stats, while the rogue & wizard can get away with 3. The 4E general case of mild MAD (which again, I agree with) gets pretty chronic when the character concept needs so many minimum stats. Anyway, as a human that leaves 3 points in the kitty and the +2 racial bonus to spend. However you look at that there is not much left over to customise the character so they're not so clone-like. If you swapped out swords for axes/hammers/etc you'd just rejig the points in dex elsewhere.

I think the paladin has been too MAD for a few too many editions now and it's long overdue this frustrating design philosophy ended.

This is exactly what I meant though. What makes a good swordsman? HBO? No, just being good with a sword. You're the one who has also made these feats a part of your "concept", and therefore it's you, not the system, that is creating the MAD issues. You can be a great Swordmaster without HBO.

Plus, if you really think it's important for RP reasons, are you also multiclassing Fighter for the Swordmaster PP? Or are you taking a Paladin PP?
 

For Charisma-based paladins I'd recommend the following stats:

Human and Tiefling:

Str 14
Con: 13
Dex: 14
Int: 8 (10)
Wis: 10 (:eek:)
Cha: 18

Half-elf:

Str 14
Con: 13
Dex: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 18

Drow and Halfings:

Str 14
Con: 13
Dex: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 13
Cha: 18

At first or second level you can take Blade Opportunist for a +2 to opportunity attacks with heavy blades. With a starting strength of 14 this is the same as having an 18 Strength through the heroic tier, which should be plenty to make your opportunity attacks sufficiently threatening (though a fighter of course will be better). You can add in combat reflexes if you are really worried. At 11th level you switch out for Blade Opportunist for Heavy Blade Opportunity and you never have to worry about wimpy O.A. again.

Of course you'll be a front-line defender with a pitiful fortitude defense so that might pose some other problems down the line.. Also your wisdom, and thus your lay on hands ability and some powers secondary effects, suffers as a result of your attempt to gain "stickiness."

The paladin class has a lot of distressing trade-offs to consider. It is, as someone mentioned above, about as difficult to build as a starlock. It's definitely not a class I'd recommend to beginners.
 
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This is exactly what I meant though. What makes a good swordsman? HBO? No, just being good with a sword. You're the one who has also made these feats a part of your "concept", and therefore it's you, not the system, that is creating the MAD issues. You can be a great Swordmaster without HBO.

Plus, if you really think it's important for RP reasons, are you also multiclassing Fighter for the Swordmaster PP? Or are you taking a Paladin PP?

A good swordsman knows the tricks with swords. You seem to be implying that proficiency is enough to declare the concept achieved, when that would only be true in a relative sense when comparing with non-sword users. In short you can not claim your character is a good <insert weapon> master when you clearly are lacking the feats regarding that weapon.

Whenever someone talks about the Paladin multiclassing, that's more ammunition for the argument that the paladin class doesn't measure up. You shouldn't have to leave the paladin class to be a better paladin. For the record I'm aiming for Champion of Order - my character will be a good swordsman (not great btw - that's fighter territory).

And let's be clear, before any feat issues are taken into account, the paladin is suffering from MAD. Str for basic attacks, Cha for DC, Wis for healing/riding effects, and Con because you'll be getting hit a lot. The plain vanilla guy is wanting a minimum base 16, 14, 12, 10 - or 16 of 22 points, right from go.

I've covered the human racial traits. Basically the single boost and 3rd at-will do not make a Paladin great. I'd put Humans behind Dragonborn & Half Elves, and in competition with the Elf & Dwarf for 3rd place. This is not what the human write up indicates.

Frankly, it feels like the Paladin was rushed out there rather underdone.
 

As said, the Paladin should have more at will powers for humans and more strength daily powers to chose from, but as it is now, the paladin doesn´t look that bad, you just have to make some amends...

but actually, since i will roll for stats, MAD wil never be an issue ;)
 

I definitely agree with this.

Unfortunately, there aren't a TON of good feats for the paladin right now, so people focus in on feats that were pretty clearly designed for the martial classes. I think this will die down a bit as the game expands.

I spent 3 of my feats as an 8th level CHA build paladin on learning or focusing on skills. I was the party skill monkey.

I didn't spend any feats on upping my offense at all.

DS
 

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