Why the World Exists

[Imaro]

How often do those big wins or crushing defeats happen? Every session? Every other? Once a month, year, decade of play? How often DO PCs face something non-level appropriate? Once a session? Once a year?

It reminds me of the argument for rolling hp vs. static hp/level. Lots of people claim the ability to roll a 10 on a d10 outweighs the risk of rolling a 1. Still, most people through the course of 20 levels end up with hp close to the average, barring an odd string of good luck or bad luck. At the end of the day though, hp seems to average out to around where the static amount would be anyway.

Is a level-appropriate tailored campaign where most PCs face level appropriate challenge (+/- 4) really all that different than a game where you sometimes fight kobolds, sometimes fight hill giants, but mostly end up fighting level-appropriate challenges? In the end of the day, aren't you more likely to face a level-approprate challenge than not?

Let me answer your question like this... all it takes is one amazing win or accomplishment to have a story for life... literally, players will talk about this type of win forever. Of course if they're never given the oportunity to at least try it if they want to.... Not to mention, IMO, it gives the world a more realistic feel...YMMV of course.

Basically I feel like you're trying to numerically codify something that can't really be codified that way, at least not for those who enjoy this type of thing.

EDIT: And in the end, how often is totally up to the PC's to decide, not me as the DM.

 

[LostSoul]

Let's look at the internal logic of a sandbox setting.

But if the dragon is suffering from "a fit of pique", that changes things somewhat...

My question for the sandbox DMs (since I'm trying to learn how to do this): Do you put a big ol' Red Dragon on the wandering monster list? If so, do you leave hints about his presence to the PCs? Does he attack on sight? Does the level of the PCs have any bearing on how you have him act?

I've got a dragon lairing in my campaign. The PCs have a chance to encounter him and he will attack on sight (unless the PCs seem too high level, in which case he might just observe). If they talk to some of the other creatures in the area, including local farmers, they'll hear about the dragon.

It happens that he's not too difficult for the PCs to beat now, but it wouldn't make sense if he was more powerful.

 

[Ariosto]

Addressing the original topic of getting desired magical treasures:

In my game, the appropriate course of action is for the player to make inquiries in character.

Is there such a thing as Item X? If so, then where might it found? If not, then how might it be made?

To me, it's not a question of deep metaphysical or moral philosophy; it is simply how one plays the game.

 

[GnomeWorks]

My question for the sandbox DMs (since I'm trying to learn how to do this): Do you put a big ol' Red Dragon on the wandering monster list? If so, do you leave hints about his presence to the PCs? Does he attack on sight? Does the level of the PCs have any bearing on how you have him act?

Depends on the dragon.

IMC, there are twelve dragons in the entire setting, so I don't know if I can really speak to this specific example. But in a more general sense, for big things like dragons or liches and whatnot, you'd try to have an idea of what the creature is like. Is it an angry dragon? Is it a stealthy dragon? Is it talkative, etc etc. His initial reaction the PCs would probably also take into account the PC's actions upon meeting.

Level is irrelevant.

I've got a dragon lairing in my campaign. The PCs have a chance to encounter him and he will attack on sight (unless the PCs seem too high level, in which case he might just observe). If they talk to some of the other creatures in the area, including local farmers, they'll hear about the dragon.

It happens that he's not too difficult for the PCs to beat now, but it wouldn't make sense if he was more powerful.

How would what not make sense if he were more powerful?

 

[Remathilis]

Let me answer your question like this... all it takes is one amazing win or accomplishment to have a story for life... literally, players will talk about this type of win forever. Of course if they're never given the opportunity to at least try it if they want to.... Not to mention, IMO, it gives the world a more realistic feel...YMMV of course.

Basically I feel like you're trying to numerically codify something that can't really be codified that way, at least not for those who enjoy this type of thing.

EDIT: And in the end, how often is totally up to the PC's to decide, not me as the DM.

Here's the fallacy: I didn't say the players could never meet a powerful foe way above their power level and, by guile and luck, defeat them. If the PCs at 5th level WANT to go hill-giant hunting, they really can.

I just would never design an encounter or adventure with that in mind.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I don't think we're on the same page here, RC. I'm asking the (deliberately loaded) question, "What prevents the DM from inflicting an unavoidable, not to mention winged and fiery, TPK on a low-level party, caught unaware?"

Do you still want to ask me why I think that can't happen during a campaign?

In addition to the wonderful answer Imaro gave, you keep imagining that it is the DM, not the players, who are choosing the encounters out of the available options.

But let us imagine that a peasant steals a golden cup from the dragon's lair, and the dragon tracks it back to the hamlet through its keen sense of smell. Whysoever would that wyrm target the PCs in particular?

There is nothing that prevents the DM from roll a d100 every day and there being a 1% chance the moon will crash down on whatever building the PCs happen to be in at the time, but I don't know too many players who would call it "fair."

As the man said earlier, fair doesn't enter into it.

However, I wouldn't call that "good design" either. Again, (1) why is the moon crashing, and (2) why does it target the PCs? If the PCs perform a ritual that calls the moon, and that's why it crashes on them, that't their own look out.


RC

 

[LostSoul]

How would what not make sense if he were more powerful?

Just some campaign specific stuff. The PCs would have heard of him already, he'd be more established, and he wouldn't have to worry about orc tribes and cultists of Orcus running around in his mountains. (Which he does - he's the obvious threat but the cult is the real one.)

 

[Celebrim]

There is nothing that prevents the DM from roll a d100 every day and there being a 1% chance the moon will crash down on whatever building the PCs happen to be in at the time, but I don't know too many players who would call it "fair."

I don't know about 'fair', it seems perfectly fair.

But I wouldn't call it a very interesting story.

If there really is a 1% chance of the moon crashing on the PC's, then we must presume that we are in a setting where the moon bashes into the planet(?) all the time, destroying 1% of all life every evening.

Naturally, this raises the question of how the PC's managed to get there in the first place and why there is anyone left alive if this has been going on for a considerable period of time. It also raises questions about the event itself. Who is calling the moon down from the sky? Why are the doing it? Why aren't the powers that be doing something about it? If the powers that be can't do anything about it, then its not a very interesting story oppurtunity because deities and other trans-epic beings can't do anything about it, it doesn't seem likely that the PC's will be able to do anything about it either. The moon crashing down on the planet is something that would involve every being on the planet - every great wrym, every archmage, every high level being on the planet would immediately become involved. The problem this presents is we are gauranteeing that this story we are telling is about the NPC's, and not about the PC's. That strikes me as a bad campaign design. The campaign ought to always be about the PC's, and the story always ought to be centered on the PC's. A story that involves the PC's, but to which they can contribute nothing really, isn't very interesting for either the DM or the PC's.

 

[Raven Crowking]

But if the dragon is suffering from "a fit of pique", that changes things somewhat...

(1) Why is the dragon in a "fit of pique"?

(2) What is the most likely action of the dragon under those circumstances?

My question for the sandbox DMs (since I'm trying to learn how to do this): Do you put a big ol' Red Dragon on the wandering monster list? If so, do you leave hints about his presence to the PCs? Does he attack on sight? Does the level of the PCs have any bearing on how you have him act?

(1) Possibly, depending upon the nature of the dragon.

(2) Yes. Some encounters with the dragon may just be from the creature passing over, or scorch marks on bison bones, etc.

(3) Possibly, depending upon the nature of the dragon. If he attacks on sight, you can be sure the locals know of this!

(4) No.

I've got a dragon lairing in my campaign. The PCs have a chance to encounter him and he will attack on sight (unless the PCs seem too high level, in which case he might just observe). If they talk to some of the other creatures in the area, including local farmers, they'll hear about the dragon.

It happens that he's not too difficult for the PCs to beat now, but it wouldn't make sense if he was more powerful.

Dragons are smart enough, in general (IMHO) to gather intelligence prior to attacking. And, again IMHO, most dragons bully before using force. YMMV.


RC

 

[Ariosto]

Do you put a big ol' Red Dragon on the wandering monster list?
Yes, within the territory that dragon wanders.

If so, do you leave hints about his presence to the PCs?
There are signs as a consequence of his passage. Whether the PCs are ever in a position to notice them is largely up to the players. In a broader context, that region is infamous as the dragon's domain.

Does he attack on sight?
That depends upon his inclination at the time, which may depend on events in play (being otherwise established by dice-roll).

Does the level of the PCs have any bearing on how you have him act?
Not directly, for he knows nothing of PC levels per se. What he perceives of what and perhaps who the characters are can be influential, especially if indicative of the kinds of power the dragon respects.