So, about Expertise...

[WalterKovacs]

You do realize that under RAW, Weapon Expertise already stacks with itself? Apparently the Khopesh, Glaive, Halberd, Longspear, Greatspear, Double Sword, and Urgrosh needed a power boost.

t~

I also realize that it seems like something that should (and hopefully will) be addressed. Until that time, as a player I won't take the feat twice for that purpose (assuming a DM even allows the feat since I know of some that won't be allow it) and as a DM, I will definitely not allow that to work. Not even so much a house rule but a particular interpretation of the "same source" rule in terms of stacking. They are untyped bonus, but the same feat taken twice for different groups is still the same feat, and I would rule it's the same source as far as stacking is concerned. I'm sure very few DMs would rule it that way, and I seriously doubt it was designed to boost those.

Of course those tempest fighters really needed that boost to the double sword ...

 

[keterys]

I would rule it's the same source as far as stacking is concerned.

I wish that rule still existed

 

[tiornys]

I wish that rule still existed

To clarify, there actually isn't a rule in 4E that prevents bonuses from the same source from stacking. Penalties, yes, but not bonuses. So, even if you rule that they're the same source, they still stack with each other under RAW.

Not that any sane DM will allow it....

t~

 

[grickherder]

What I'm about to say only applies to levels 1-14. When expertise hits the +2 bonus and level 15, it's in a whole new ball park compared to other feats.

Perhaps a good comparison is what you get to hit by spending a feat on a superior weapon proficiency.

Generally speaking, you're going to get either a larger damage die, a +1 hit or a special property like high crit, brutal or defensive.

If the priority is +1 to hit (like say switching from a broad sword to a bastard sword) then you're better off with expertise as you can simply keep using the broad sword and get a +1 to hit with every other heavy blade you might pick up.

If the priority is additional damage, expertise is only a good idea if there's a similarly typed weapon that does more damage that doesn't require a feat for you to use. For example, going from a longsword to a broadsword with expertise. But if we're talking about axes, you'd need to spend the feat on proficiency with the war axe. There isn't a single handed weapon you can take with a lower proficiency bonus that expertise would then compensate for.

If the priority is having those special weapon effects like high crit or brutal or whatever, then unless you can find a weapon you're already proficient with that has them, you're going to have to spend a feat to get that.

Now the real love comes for a dwarf with weapon training who alredy knows how to use the war axe and takes expertise and makes it a +3 d12 versatile weapon with a nice +2 to damage. But that's two feats as well.

After level 15, expertise you get you a net +2 or an increase in damage die size and a net +1 (for example, switching from longsword to broadsword). It's definitely better than spending a feat on proficiency with a superior weapon.

My assessment of all this is that it is marginally better than a superior weapon proficiency until level 15 and then obviously better after that.

 

[77IM]

That is a good analysis to compare it to Weapon Proficiency (some superior weapon). In my opinion, though, superior weapons are also slightly broken. ;}


Looking at the paragon tier feats, it seems that a near-constant +1 attack bonus is pretty well balanced against a lot of the other crazy stuff that feats get at paragon tier (hello, Combat Anticipation...). I think if Expertise were a flat +1 (not increasing) and came in at paragon levels (so as to not obsolete many of the conditional +1 attack feats at heroic teir) we would probably never have had this debate.

-- 77IM

 

[Obryn]

Yeah, as of last night I just went ahead and houseruled it. I'm not completely sold on whether it is or isn't balanced, but I do think that it's a boring feat.

So, I'm giving everyone +1 to-hit at 5th, +2 at 15th, and +3 at 25th. No Expertise feats exist.

This serves to free up feat slots for more interesting (IMHO) feats; it treats Expertise as basically errata; and it allows it to help on non-weapon, non-implement abilities like dragon breath, fireburst, and several Paragon Path options. Everything non-weapon and non-implement is already at a disadvantage... I didn't want to hurt them any further.

-O

 

[KarinsDad]

Looking at the paragon tier feats, it seems that a near-constant +1 attack bonus is pretty well balanced against a lot of the other crazy stuff that feats get at paragon tier (hello, Combat Anticipation...).

In a game system were a minimum of one defense has to start falling behind the others, you consider a +1 to defense that does not stack with most other defense feat bonuses against ~42% of the attacks crazy?

Unlike the +1 to hit discussion (where the ability score always adds in and it is typically for 100% of attacks), all defenses do not get the stat ability score increase bonuses. So, feats have to make up for both the defensive math problem and the one or more defenses do not get stat ability increases (or as many stat ability increases).

+1 to hit 100% of the time (typically) is more powerful than +1 defense to 42% of attacks (not even counting that at least one defense has to start falling behind and the fact that Combat Anticipation does not stack with most other defense feats).

+1 to hit 100% of the time is more powerful than +2 to a single defense like Great Fortitude (~15% of attacks) or Iron Will (~11% of attacks) or Lightning Reflexes (~18% of attacks).

Note: These percentages are for all monsters in the MM, not just Paragon and above, so they are might be off by a percentage point or so.


In fact, we have been talking here about the offensive math problem, but have not been discussing the defensive math problem.

It's the same problem, except in reverse. Monster attacks are level based plus powers, PC defenses are half level plus magic plus stat gains plus feats plus powers. The only differences are that there are some more feats to help handle the defensive math problem and the game is designed for a PC to always have at least one weak defense (from minimal stat ability gain).

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, as of last night I just went ahead and houseruled it. I'm not completely sold on whether it is or isn't balanced, but I do think that it's a boring feat.

So, I'm giving everyone +1 to-hit at 5th, +2 at 15th, and +3 at 25th. No Expertise feats exist.

This serves to free up feat slots for more interesting (IMHO) feats; it treats Expertise as basically errata; and it allows it to help on non-weapon, non-implement abilities like dragon breath, fireburst, and several Paragon Path options. Everything non-weapon and non-implement is already at a disadvantage... I didn't want to hurt them any further.

Agreed.

I do think that +1 at 5, +2 at 15, and +3 at 25 is a little much due to the increased number of powers that PCs acquire as they gain levels, I prefer +1 at Paragon and another +1 at Epic, but I do think that once people become aware of this, it might start becoming a fairly common type of house rule.

Now, what are you going to do about the defensive math problem?

I think I am going to add +1 to all defenses at Paragon and again at Epic levels, just like for offense.

 

[keterys]

There's a defense discussion going on the house rules forum, but the math gap can actually end up more like 4 to 8 for defenses unless you take things like the new +4 to a defense feat or +2 to all defenses.

So, decide if you're keeping such feats before figuring out how much you're adding to them, but there's room to add 3 to 6 to defenses likely.

 

[Regicide]

If the priority is additional damage, expertise is only a good idea if there's a similarly typed weapon that does more damage that doesn't require a feat for you to use.

It's been shown (in this thread even) that the +1 to hit does more damage than taking a damage feat. On top of that other power effects will trigger and of course minions make hitting far more important even before you calculate damage.