New Forgotten Realms designed by FR haters?

[Scribble]

Then why use the Forgotten Realms? Why not use Eberron, or a homebrew world, or bring back Dark Sun, or Planescape, or even Greyhawk.

Because parts of the Realms spoke to that particular author? Art is funny like that.

I have always been able to add my own voice to the Realms. Never once did I feel constrained (and I have made alot of my own realms stories). People get caught up in the amount of lore without seeing that if you focus on an area, there really may not be that much history. Don't use Shadowdale or Waterdeep. Use Athkatla, Berdusk, or Scornubel. I have developed Scornubel far above what is developed in any of the guides.

That's cool. Rememebr the part where I said there are probably tons of untold stories in the old realms? But sometimes people want to use other parts. Again art is like that.

Look how many times Batman has had a "restart?"

And even those parts that don't have much detail are still touched in various ways by the 20+ years of history in other parts.

Another counter argument I have is that you can use the same "laziness" argument in favor of changing the realms up. If you don't people get lazy and rely on 20 years of history to create their story insted of thinking up new ones. Instead of unique stories we get formulaic plug in the pieces.

the reason I cannot buy this argument is because there are plenty of campaign worlds out there. If one wanted to tell a story in the Forgotten Realms in the first place, why would the lore discourage them? A majour reason for the realms was its rich lore and history. If someone did not want that background why would they want to use the realms?

Because they like the overall picture of the Realms, but their story won't quite fit within the nitty gritty framework. They have an idea for the Realms but someone eleses idea that happened to come first invalidates it.

Lots of reasons.

I am hard pressed to see how a storyteller (DM, Writer, whatever) could not tell an original story with fresh ideas in what was the Forgotten Realms before the change. If you want a new city make it. A new villain; make it. Even Marvel Comics can come up with original storiesthat do not impact their universe on a cosmic level.

Sure no argument there. No argument that DMs are creative and can create all sorts of neat stuff no matter what the setting.

Then that would not be the setting for you. Understandable. I would not call you lazy for not wanting to use the realms. Why would someone want to use the Realms if they did not want to explore the lore?

Because again, the Big Picture is interesting, but all the lore is more work then it's worth.

The Realms that is published now, is completely different from the Realms that stood the test of time. it is a completely different campaign setting.

Sure, it's a different period in the history of the realms. The realms that existed in 2007 was a completely different campaign setting then the one that existed in 1987. Only thing constant is change. I'm looking forward to seeing what the new stories that crop up out of the Realms are.

 

[Obryn]

I have not met someone yet who is familiar with gaming (note I do not mean 'just entered the hobby') that would not be able to tell the difference between the two. I know the quote from Mike Mearls. I didn't agree with it then, and I don't agree with it now since every gamer I know CAN tell the difference between the two. Mike Mearls job is to make a product and convince people to buy it.

I think gamers, by and large, do know the difference between the two. I think you miss the point, though, when you think this is what he was talking about.

I think the point was that both FR and Greyhawk are, at their root, generic fantasy settings. Don't get me wrong - both developed in their own ways and have built up their own lore - but by and large, any adventure found in one could be found in the other just as easily. This shouldn't be surprising - both were designed to be, more or less, settings where one can play AD&D. So, they had all the trappings of AD&D. Unless you bring up specific place names or god names, I doubt you could watch a game and figure out which setting it's in.

Then why use the Forgotten Realms? Why not use Eberron, or a homebrew world, or bring back Dark Sun, or Planescape, or even Greyhawk.

I'll turn this around - why not the Forgotten Realms?

I have always been able to add my own voice to the Realms. Never once did I feel constrained (and I have made alot of my own realms stories). People get caught up in the amount of lore without seeing that if you focus on an area, there really may not be that much history. Don't use Shadowdale or Waterdeep. Use Athkatla, Berdusk, or Scornubel. I have developed Scornubel far above what is developed in any of the guides.

I take it, though, that you are also very familiar with the Realms. You seem pretty attached to Realmslore and the history, so it strikes me as disingenouous that you could talk about how easy it is to make adventures there.

the reason I cannot buy this argument is because there are plenty of campaign worlds out there. If one wanted to tell a story in the Forgotten Realms in the first place, why would the lore discourage them? A majour reason for the realms was its rich lore and history. If someone did not want that background why would they want to use the realms?

...and this kinda contradicts your previous point. If one wants to tell a story in the Realms, by this argument, one should also take the time to learn the (rich/too rich) history. It's not a simple process anymore.

Then that would not be the setting for you. Understandable. I would not call you lazy for not wanting to use the realms. Why would someone want to use the Realms if they did not want to explore the lore?

You keep repeating this point. Are you saying that the Realms should be a difficult world to write adventures in?

The Realms that is published now, is completely different from the Realms that stood the test of time. it is a completely different campaign setting.

I agree that it's a different setting. So ... go ahead and use the other Realms. It's kinda your call, as I see it.

-O

 

[Scribble]

QFT. Infact, that has been most of my problem with 4E. I'm sure it is a great game, but it is not what I want in a game bearing the name Dungeons and Dragons. If I can't take a 1E book of fluff (ignoring all stats), use it in any later version of D&D and feel like I am playing the same game, but with different mechanics, then its D&D. 4E doesn't inspire that feeling, from everything I have seen. That's why it is not D&D to me. That's why Pathfinder is D&D to me.

To each his own man... I've personally been opening and using a lot of my earlier supplments lately far more then I ever did in recent years. To ME it feels like an old friend from my past has come back into my life... Just a bit more in shape, and extroverted then he once was!

If Pathfinder creates that feeling for you... Right on! Win Win!

 

[Arnwyn]

From RPG.net. Is this true?

Like what some others said: It wouldn't surprise me if it were true, but I doubt it.

 

[grimslade]

I don't think there was a hatred of FR on the design team. I think there was a bit of indifference. I don't believe there was an active FR campaign going on at WotC when 4E was being designed and a lot of the designers and developers were lightly exposed to FR. The Design and Development articles leading up to the FR launch had lots of tidbits like this. The FR boards on Gleemax/WotC were a good place for designer comment, mostly Rich Baker Must Be Stopped (I think he had his name legally changed). There was nothing nefarious in what happened to FR. WotC wanted the Golden Goose to keep laying golden eggs, but they wanted the gold inside too. So we have Zombie Gander to contend with.

First, I like 4E FR. I can dream of a million campaigns using the material in the FRCB. I like the concept of Returned Abeir. I enjoy the fantastic and magical landscapes torn by an arcane apocalypse. The parts I don't enjoy I can handwave away. Some places need more handwaving, some need wind-generating, vigorous handwaving. All in all, New FR is fun to play in with neat places to kill neat enemies and take their neat stuff.

The problem is the setting seems rushed and a jumbled tossed salad of concepts instead of a unified setting. Part of this is intent the juxtaposition of Returned Abeir and Faerun creates tension and uncertainty for adventurers to overcome. In hindsight, I think 100 years is too little a time difference for the setting jump. And right out of the gate at the release of 4E was too soon for the setting. The setting needed more in game and development time to gel. Saying a thousand year jump before the release was akin to saying discontinued, but I think it would have been a cleaner break. Of course, the other alternative was to rename the setting Returned Abeir and discontinue FR. I think the setting would have had less detractors that way, but maybe not.

 

[Roman]

All I can say is that if those writers of the new Realms did not hate the Forgotten Realms then in my opinion they really did a good - an excellent job - of faking such hate.

ROFL, but considering what has been done it rings eerily true!

the reason I cannot buy this argument is because there are plenty of campaign worlds out there. If one wanted to tell a story in the Forgotten Realms in the first place, why would the lore discourage them? A majour reason for the realms was its rich lore and history. If someone did not want that background why would they want to use the realms?

...

Then that would not be the setting for you. Understandable. I would not call you lazy for not wanting to use the realms. Why would someone want to use the Realms if they did not want to explore the lore?

The Realms that is published now, is completely different from the Realms that stood the test of time. it is a completely different campaign setting.

I am in complete agreement with you here. It's not that the new setting is necessarily bad, it's just that it isn't Forgotten Realms any more.

To be honest, I don't even see much commercial sense in it. After all, WotC has another wildly successful setting, Eberron, that does not have the backlog of lore, does not have such high-level NPCs and so on - so they already cater to the market of gamers that prefers that. Even if that market is bigger, wouldn't it also make sense to support, perhaps with fewer sourcebooks if it is not as big as the other market, the market of gamers who love FR and its complexity, lore, characters and so on?

 

[Henry]

To each his own man... I've personally been opening and using a lot of my earlier supplments lately far more then I ever did in recent years. To ME it feels like an old friend from my past has come back into my life... Just a bit more in shape, and extroverted then he once was!

I had a similar feeling when I ran my 4E Eberron game last year. I picked up the Eberron Campaign book from 3.5, starting drafting 4E NPCs to go with it, and didn't skip a beat. The only thing I missed was the Dragonmarks, and fortunately I didn't have any players interested in a Dragonmarked Heir, but thanks to Spellscars and multiclassing I have an idea how they would work in Eberron, and I imagine if I pick up my 4E Eberron game this year, the Eberron Player book will be out by then, and the point will be moot.

 

[Mournblade94]

I'll turn this around - why not the Forgotten Realms?

I was only referring to this question in the context of someone that thought the realms was too much work.

I take it, though, that you are also very familiar with the Realms. You seem pretty attached to Realmslore and the history, so it strikes me as disingenouous that you could talk about how easy it is to make adventures there.

I have never read an Eberron book. If I was asked to write an adventure for it I would be able to create a good, relevent, adventure with only perusing the main source book for Eberron. The realms was the same. If however you wanted to write a realms changing campaign, maybe then you would have to research more.

...and this kinda contradicts your previous point. If one wants to tell a story in the Realms, by this argument, one should also take the time to learn the (rich/too rich) history. It's not a simple process anymore.

In that quote above I am assuming the context of an individual that thinks the realms is too 'hard', 'much', 'complex', 'esoteric', and other appropriate words. In that context, I asked why would someone then want to use the realms.

You keep repeating this point. Are you saying that the Realms should be a difficult world to write adventures in?

It is not a difficult world with which to work. I did repeat this using the assumption I described above.

I agree that it's a different setting. So ... go ahead and use the other Realms. It's kinda your call, as I see it.

-O

It most certainly is a players call. Some people though need support for their favourite setting. I am not one of those, I could write adventures for the forgotten realms all I want, or modify modules for the setting. Someone that wanted support though is pretty much shagged if they don't like the DRASTIC change, and shift of complete paradigm. It is no longer the campaign setting they wanted, nor is it the one they have come to accept.

Its one thing to come up with a new rules system. People choose campaigns for a particular spectrum of adventure they enjoy. Many FR fans feel as if that spectrum was changed on them completely. INstead of green realms they are now playing red realms.

It is no different that saying 'we are now discontinuing Star Wars material and giving you this new campaign setting'. Ok Star Wars fans, we are taking away the force. There are many empires now Klingon and Romulan are some of them. The entire new republic/rebel alliance/republic is now being called star fleet.

If you liked Star Trek that is great. If you liked Star Wars though you are screwed. The rub though is that Star Trek already exists, there is no where for Star Wars fans to go and have their product supported.

 

[jbear]

I strongly doubt that someone who hates the realms would be assigned to redesign it for a new product release.

I am running the realms and I find the new story very inspiring. Mystra dead, a mad god her assassin, the lost continent returned, the underdark layed bare...

What I would have found more incomprehensible would have been a FR Campaign release that was little more than rewriting a previous campaign guide with 4e statistics. I'm not really sure what people are advocating or how they think they could have done it better when they slam the new FR.

 

[Shazman]

Well, I would say that it is highly likely that the FR design team didn't like many aspects of the setting just like the 4E design team seemed to not like many aspects of D&D.