D&D 4E 4E Dragons - Where's the beef?

[Remathilis]

I appreciate the reasoned response Mengu, but I guess I still don't like it. When a 3rd level fighter sees a big dragon in my campaign, I want him to first, crap in his armor and second, run like hell. None of this we want to give you time to retreat so your precious PC doesn't die. No siree Bob. Turn and run or stand and fry!

DM: You are traveling along the mountain path when you see in the distance (2d6x10 feet ahead) a red dragon on the wing.
PC Fighter: A dragon, eh, how big?
DM: Huge!
PC Wizard: HUGE! That means its "rolls Know: arcana" Young adult or higher! I just mastered second level spells! Lets Flee!
PC Cleric: Agreed
PC Rogue: Already running.
DM: The Dragon rolls his spot check (rolls spot) Anyone's hide check beat a 42?
All PCs: NO!
DM: Ok, I rolled an 11. He see's you. Roll init.
[Everyone rolls init, PCs go first]
DM: Ok, whatcha doing?
Fighter: Running. In my armor, I can move 60 ft
Wizard: I cast invisibility and move 30 ft.
Cleric: Like the Fighter, 60 ft
Rogue: All out booking! 120 ft!
DM: Ok, the red dragon moves 150 ft as a move action, and then breathes an additional 50 ft cone cone. That covers everyone. Give me Reflex saves.
Fighter: whew! 19!
Wizard: Dammit! 14
Cleric: uh, 4. Can I roll an action point?
Rogue: Woohoo! 22! With evasion!
DM: Sorry, the DC was 26. You each take 12d10 damage. That's "rolls" 84 damage.
Fighter. Negative 50!
Wizard: Toast.
Cleric: ...
Rogue: I wonder what my guild is doing in WoW right now...

By the time the PCs saw the dragon, they were already dead. It didn't matter what they did in their armor before, or even if they ran full tilt. They were DEAD.

Moral of the story; Don't use CR 15 dragons when your PCs are 3rd level. In any edition.

 

[Hjorimir]

I actually like that the PCs don't die instantly. It allows for things we read about in books or see in movies where a hero might distract or delay something it cannot defeat long enough for others to escape. In 4e, you can do this with the RAW. (Then start a skill challenge for the PC to effectively escape.)

It's a feature as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Moved to 4e rules forum.

In addition, any more snarky comments will lead to involuntary holidays from ENworld - there has been far too much on this thread.

Thanks

 

[KarinsDad]

For me, the missing beef for Dragons in 4E is not their lesser damage ranges.

It was the lack of any magic.

A Dragon should have magic and brawn. So, I added the class template of a Divine or Arcane caster class to most of my dragons (along with the Ritual feat if the class does not give it).

I especially like the Utility powers they gain doing this.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

For me, the missing beef for Dragons in 4E is not their lesser damage ranges.

It was the lack of any magic.

A Dragon should have magic and brawn. So, I added the class template of a Divine or Arcane caster class to most of my dragons (along with the Ritual feat if the class does not give it).

I especially like the Utility powers they gain doing this.

Yup and it is way easy to do. That is one really excellent reason to use 4e. It is way easier to make up monsters with custom abilities.

 

[Plane Sailing]

For me, the missing beef for Dragons in 4E is not their lesser damage ranges.

It was the lack of any magic.

A Dragon should have magic and brawn. So, I added the class template of a Divine or Arcane caster class to most of my dragons (along with the Ritual feat if the class does not give it).

I especially like the Utility powers they gain doing this.

It is a neat idea, I'll probably use it when I next run a dragon.

Out of interest, do you up the xp in accordance with the template too?

Cheers

 

[UngeheuerLich]

rule 0: if you are more than 8 levels higher than a monster, you may treat it as a minion... or vice versa

 

[D'karr]

For me, the missing beef for Dragons in 4E is not their lesser damage ranges.

It was the lack of any magic.

A Dragon should have magic and brawn. So, I added the class template of a Divine or Arcane caster class to most of my dragons (along with the Ritual feat if the class does not give it).

I especially like the Utility powers they gain doing this.

See, I would have liked something like this to be a suggestion in the Monster Manual. I don't like it as the default, but as an add-on for the DM to customize the dragon, I think it is great.

 

[Regicide]

It wasn't veiled at all. But it technically doesn't violate forum rules, and challenging him on it probably will, so its best to let it go.

How is a true statement a dig pray tell?

Characters die much less often in 4E thanks to things like... more HPs at level 1, crits doing much lower spike damage, no massive damage saves, bloodied for negative instead of 10 before death, practically no save-or-dies, more healing available, cheaper healing potions etc. etc. etc. As well, the death penalty is far less severe for permanent effects, getting raises and raise costs.

The feeling for 3E was that for the first 5-8 levels, if you die, you start a new character, for 9-12 you probably can't afford a true rez so were screwed with a level penalty, and for 13-20 you're taking a pretty sizeable hit in your gold for the true rez.

Earlier editions were often even more deadly and expecting to go through half-a-dozen characters before you got to level 9 was pretty typical. It took the DM actively helping the PCs and fudgeing die rolls and such to not see character death and turn-over as fairly common.

4E however has a MUCH lower death rate and it takes a DM actively TRYING to kill the PCs in order to really jeopordize them.

So yes, the viewpoint of 4E handing players tickets to 30 is pretty much spot on for anyone comeing from previous editions. Call that a "dig" if you want, but I believe I've backed that up, and if "truth" is a "dig", then maybe it's you that is seeing a problem with 4E.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Green dragons gets slide as a minor action ... play with your food.