D&D 4E 4E Dragons - Where's the beef?

If you're setting up a fight between a level 15 solo against a level 3 party, the intent is obviously to wipe out the level 3 party anway (if they can't flee), I see no reason to let the agony last more than a single round. By using a level 15 solo against the level 3 party, you're not following the rules anyway if that happens to be important to you, so you might as well tweak those dragon stats so that they make sense for a level 3 party.

Sky

See I disagree that this is the case. You could be setting it up for any number of reasons.

Dragon swoops in and gets the drop on the PCs. "Oh no dragon!" It breathes once, letting the PCs know that if they attempt to fight, they're toast.

"Tell me now why I shouldn't burn you where you stand?" Says the dragon.

Enter skill challenge of appropriate level wherein the PCs either attempt to bargain with the dragon for their lives, or flee, or any other number of things.

Despite the fact that the rule books spend a lot of time on combat, not every encounter has to be a fight.
 

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I understand that. I am just puzzled that with SUCH a power level discrepency that the encounter is not an immediate slam dunk. I would love to pick the designers' brains and find out the reasoning behind this design decision.

To begin with, 4e characters receive a substantial portion of their overall hp at 1st level (in contrast to 3.x characters whose hp increase a little more linearly if one assumes the average). At 3rd level a 4e fighter with 16 Con will have 43 hp, in contrast to the same character in 3.x having (assuming average rolls) 30 hp.

Only a 13 hp difference admittedly, but consider that 4e started with 31 hp whereas 3.x has only 13 hp at level one (an 18 hp gap that narrows by 5 after only 2 levels). Their hp progression curves are significantly different, which influences how much damage is "appropriate" at later levels.

Secondly, that the 4e dragon will drop the 3rd level fighter in the first round is almost guaranteed (Breath Weapon + Action Point + Double Attack for 51 average damage), he just doesn't go about it in exactly the same manner. There are a number of reasons for this.

For starters, 3.x dragons assume that you have some form of applicable energy resistance like Protection from Energy (or some effective equivalent like the Cloak of Resistance + Ring of Evasion combo) if one intends to slay them. This is something I read from one of the designers (I think it was Monte Cook). 4e does have some limited damage resist effects but nothing even comes close to Protection from Energy, hence 4e does not account for such resistances.

Then there is the fact that the dragons output damage differently. The 4e dragon uses his breath weapon as a free action the moment he hits 50% hp. He also has 2 action points to use during the encounter that give him a free standard action (which he can use to Double Attack). Basic 3.x dragons could either full attack or breathe. Three times during a given encounter a basic 4e dragon can Double Attack and breathe. I think it rather obvious from this that if you gave 4e the same damage as that of 3.x, that he'd become a virtually guaranteed TPK.

Finally, the 4e dragon has 750 hp, as opposed to the 253 (average) hp the 3.x dragon has, so 4e may have two to three times as long that he can beat on the party (obviously this ignores a lot of other relevant factors such as damage and status effects, so consider this an extremely crude theory rather than gospel). 4e paces it's encounters differently from 3.x. Damage and hp have been adjusted in order to make encounters longer (in terms of rounds) so that both sides have an opportunity to use more powers.

3.x and 4e each have differing approaches to combat. This, in turn, necessitates different approaches to class and monster design. IMO, each does an admirable job within it's own style niche, the preference of which is of course a matter of personal taste.

[ Disclaimer ]
I realize that these comparisons may border dangerously close on "edition war", but in all honesty that is not how they are intended and I ask that they please not be received in that manner. The OP's question related to why these two creatures are so different, and I could not think of any clear means of explanation without using the two creatures themselves for comparison, which in turn requires some degree of examination of the base assumptions of the systems themselves.
[ /Disclaimer ]
 
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Also even if you DO want to make it a fight, ther are lots of things you can do to bring the encounter back into balance.

Maybe a catapult that can hit higher AC then the fighter alone has, or a "special" magic item that can trap the Dragon or something...

Knocking out the one shot one kill ability of the dragon means it's no longer either we win initiative and can enact this plan, or it does, and we're all dead.
 

The 4E mechanic doesn't break down, since a level 15 solo vs a level 3 party could still work, technically, in that you could run the combat between the dragon and the level 3 party and the dragon would still kick their butts and everyone would still roll dice and the "rules" would be followed. The 4E mechanic is however not balanced for allowing a third level party to encounter a level 15 solo and make any sense.

I'm sorry, how does the encounter "not make any sense"? The dragon will kill not just the Fighter, but probably the entire party, in under 20 seconds. If we're assuming that "much higher level opponent" + "quick and unavoidable death" = "sense", I'm at a loss to see what about that scenario doesn't make sense.
 

Really? Red Great Wyrm breath: 24d10 (40). That's an average of 132 on a failed save. I've seen 20th level wizards with more HP than that. The fighter is not toast (although that is a lot of damage). And that's a monster well above the party level.

Moreover, protective spells could be passed around a lot more freely in prior editions. In my experience, the dragon was a lot more likely to hit a whole party protected by Energy Resistance, Protection from Energy (both core spells), or Energy Immunity.

In 4e, energy protection spells usually don't last long, can't be used as often, protect fewer people, and don't reach the lofty heights of immunity or big ablative buffs. Although energy protection items are much more cost effective IMO.

So now the dragon's breath weapon is more likely to do something, since it's not running into a wall of powerful magical protections.
 

This is all forgetting one important fact about 4e dragons, namely that they are solo monsters. They have a lot more actions than 3.x dragons and I'm not just talking action points. That's where the beef is.

In earlier editions that dragon may kill the fighter in one breath. He may kill the entire party if he can line it up right. If that's what you want you can have the dragon swoop down and kill everybody in the group and wipe your hands of DMing. Or maybe not. Maybe you can't line up the breath, or you don't win initiative, or the fighter makes his Reflex save or you roll crap damage on the dice. Then you have 4 angry PCs each one of which gets to wail on your dragon while he sits back unable to take any actions. Look I'm not saying that a 3rd level party has a chance of winning against a 15th level dragon but they don't in 4e either. What I'm saying is that a 4e dragon is as meaty and nasty an opponent as a 3.x dragon, they just aren't the same kind of meaty nasty opponent.

I know it can be disappointing to see the damage numbers on these attacks and think "wow this attack can't even hurt someone 10 levels lower than the monster," but you have to remember that monsters are different in 4e. Their strength no longer lies in the raw damage potential of a single attack. That 3.x dragon had to have a powerful attack because once he took his turn that was it for that round. A 4e dragon on the other hand has a lot of new tricks in its bag. :D
 

Players are now entitled to level 30 and epic paths. If players die before level 30 the developers have found through market research the game will not be considered fun.

Could you back this assertion up with anything?

Because, on the surface of it, this looks like a yet another thinly veiled dig at 4e and people playing it.
 

Could you back this assertion up with anything?

Because, on the surface of it, this looks like a yet another thinly veiled dig at 4e and people playing it.
It wasn't veiled at all. But it technically doesn't violate forum rules, and challenging him on it probably will, so its best to let it go.
 

Woah, the haters and the trufans got wind of this thread fast...

For what it's worth, constructively, I think Skyscraper has a brilliant way to look at the problem. You don't pit an adult red dragon against a level 3 party. If you're doing that, you're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. The question I'd ask is: "What are you trying to do with that adult red dragon?"

The answer seems to be "Have the power to intimidate the characters, knowing that it could kill them quickly if it wanted."

But you see that an adult red dragon doesn't do that job in 4e, so you have to find something that DOES.

The way to do that, as Skyscraper pointed out, is to just ramp up the damage. If the PC's come back to face the same dragon later and it deals less damage, it's easily explainable by the levels the characters have gained: they roll with the punches better, better defend themselves, and so take less damage.

If you want a more codified system, maybe multiply the damage by tiers -- the adult dragon at 15 is "paragon tier," so against creatures in the heroic tier, it deals x2 or x3 or x4 (whatever you want to make it threatening) damage. Against creatures in the "epic tier" maybe it deals 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/4 damage. An epic-tier creature hitting the heroic-tier PC's might do X4 or x8 damage, while they'd do only 1/4 or so the damage to it that they'd normally do.

That reflects the narrative and simulationist element out of the thing, and, while you're at it, helps explain minions (they're "mundane tier" creatures, regardless of their level).

I actually really like that idea, and I find that it makes a lot of sense to look at the damage relativistically, and to make new rules for when that relativism breaks down.

Sweet. That helps me with one of my huge issues with 4e, seeing it like that. Thanks, Skyscraper!
 

If you're setting up a fight between a level 15 solo against a level 3 party, the intent is obviously to wipe out the level 3 party anway (if they can't flee), I see no reason to let the agony last more than a single round. By using a level 15 solo against the level 3 party, you're not following the rules anyway if that happens to be important to you, so you might as well tweak those dragon stats so that they make sense for a level 3 party.

Ah, but what if you're not "setting it up". What if level 15 dragons happen to inhabit a certain mountain range and the 3rd level PCs decide to go there despite, or perhaps because of, all the talk of dragons (mmm... hoard)? This is one of a handful of places where I rather like 4E's approach (*gasp* I know...). By building the game in such a way that it is highly unlikely that even a very powerful monster will destroy a whole party in a single round, out-of-level encounters become not only viable again, but "fair". Sure, if the random encounter table results in the 15th level dragon, and it decides that the party looks like a good meal, and the party doesn't have a chance to evade, then one PC is probably drake-snack (after all, it attacked because it was hungry -- why would it split its attacks; then again, if it attacked because it was hungry, a horse, mule or ox would be a much more satisfying meal, but I digress) but the rest have a chance to flee. A 2E or 3E party is probably fried. Not that i have a huge problem with that at a DM, but players tend to get irritated when random encounters result in TPKs. F'in' players... ;)

In any case, even for someone like me who doesn't like 4E much (to be honest, my dislike of 4E is far more on the PC end than the DM-oriented end) this is indeed a feature and not a bug because it managed that truly rare balance between preserving "simulation" in that a high level monster is a deadly threat no matter how you slice it, and preserving gameplay in that a single roll of the die is not likely to result in the end of a campaign (in the end of a character? I got no problem with *that*).
 

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