D&D 4E 4E Dragons - Where's the beef?

[Crothian]

It's not like the fighter has a chance to win the battle. i see no issues that the Dragon gets to play a little with his meal first.

 

[Skyscraper]

You're not supposed to pit an adult red dragon (level 15 solo according to MM) against a 3rd level party. Why? Because the DMG says so. And why does it say so? Because the 4E mechanic breaks down if you do. And why's that? Because the 4E mechanic is relative, not absolute. I understand not everyone agrees with this point of view, but this is how I see things and I do not wish to go into the entire absolute vs relative thing again until we derive towards whether a level 20 minion actually has a single hit point when facing a hypothetical farmer with no combat training whatsoever. But, assuming you agree with the "relative" apprach, i.e. the level 20 minion only has a single hit point for the level 20 opponents but would have more hit points than the farmer can count against him, then that's why the adult red dragon's stats in the MM would not allow him to kill a level 3 fighter with a single breath weapon.

Now, back to your question, what if a level three party met an adult red dragon? Well, I think you then need to redesign the dragon. An adult red dragon's breath is supposed to deal 2d12 + 6 fire damage to level 15 opponents. Against level 3 opponents? Have it deal 12d12 and fry the whole lot if you wanna. The creature is way too strong for them anyway and presumably that's the point you want to carry across.

Sky

 

[Barcode]

Wow, 6 answers and already 2 snipes by ppl who don't even play 4th and thus can have no idea what they are talking about.

Par for the course around here these days.

 

[AnthonyRoberson]

...This is not a bug, it's a feature. PC's are able to see when they are outmatched in an encounter, and can handle it accordingly with a strategic retreat. This gives the DM tools for creating "run for your life" situations with less of a TPK risk.

I appreciate the reasoned response Mengu, but I guess I still don't like it. When a 3rd level fighter sees a big dragon in my campaign, I want him to first, crap in his armor and second, run like hell. None of this we want to give you time to retreat so your precious PC doesn't die. No siree Bob. Turn and run or stand and fry!

 

[Scribble]

I appreciate the reasoned response Mengu, but I guess I still don't like it. When a 3rd level fighter sees a big dragon in my campaign, I want him to first, crap in his armor and second, run like hell. None of this we want to give you time to retreat so your precious PC doesn't die. No siree Bob. Turn and run or stand and fry!

This is all fine and dandy with "iconic" things like a Dragon. People know what Dragons are, and that they're supposed to be powerful. But what about non iconic things that no one has any out of game info on? Sometimes the only way to figure out if something can kill you would be to see how powerful it is. In which case that means you only know something is powerful enough to kill you in one shot, after it does. Kind of lame in my opinion.

Aside from that, as others have stated, through things like action points, dragons CAN pretty easily take that fighter out if they want. Plus the fighter can't harm it. That AC is huge.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I appreciate the reasoned response Mengu, but I guess I still don't like it. When a 3rd level fighter sees a big dragon in my campaign, I want him to first, crap in his armor and second, run like hell. None of this we want to give you time to retreat so your precious PC doesn't die. No siree Bob. Turn and run or stand and fry!

The easiest solution to this problem is to say, "The dragon breathes. You die."

 

[Cadfan]

You're not supposed to pit an adult red dragon (level 15 solo according to MM) against a 3rd level party. Why? Because the DMG says so. And why does it say so? Because the 4E mechanic breaks down if you do.

I'm not sure that's the reason. I think it has more to do with the dragon automatically winning. At that level difference, the dragon is less of a foe and more of a plot device.

I appreciate the reasoned response Mengu, but I guess I still don't like it. When a 3rd level fighter sees a big dragon in my campaign, I want him to first, crap in his armor and second, run like hell. None of this we want to give you time to retreat so your precious PC doesn't die. No siree Bob. Turn and run or stand and fry!

Just to make sure we're all on the same page here:

If I understand correctly, you are honestly and sincerely asserting that for you or your gaming group, the difference between a 3rd level fighter seeing a big dragon and "first, crap in his armor and second, run like hell," and not, is whether using a dragon of specifically 15th level, the fighter can expect to inevitably die on the second or third round of combat instead of the first.

This is a genuine issue for you. You genuinely expect there to be a difference in your gameplay experience if it takes three rounds to inevitably die instead of one.

 

[arscott]

Anthony, find yourself a 3rd level party, and throw a 15th level dragon against them. See for yourself whether or not they run screaming.

 

[Agamon]

I appreciate the reasoned response Mengu, but I guess I still don't like it. When a 3rd level fighter sees a big dragon in my campaign, I want him to first, crap in his armor and second, run like hell. None of this we want to give you time to retreat so your precious PC doesn't die. No siree Bob. Turn and run or stand and fry!

Wait, don't give him a chance to retreat, but hopefully he tries to run? Are we using the same dictionary for the word "retreat"? What if the PC is surprised or loses initiative?

 

[Skyscraper]

I'm not sure that's the reason. I think it has more to do with the dragon automatically winning. At that level difference, the dragon is less of a foe and more of a plot device.

Yes, automatically winning is the thing. Why let the fight last 3 rounds?

Let me rephrase. The 4E mechanic doesn't break down, since a level 15 solo vs a level 3 party could still work, technically, in that you could run the combat between the dragon and the level 3 party and the dragon would still kick their butts and everyone would still roll dice and the "rules" would be followed. The 4E mechanic is however not balanced for allowing a third level party to encounter a level 15 solo and make any sense.

The warning in the DMG about avoiding opponents that have a too important a level difference with the PCs is clear and it was not made arbitrarily. It was made for a specific reason. It's not just that the monsters will be too strong (or too weak). It's that the game is not built for such encounters.

For example, the game provides guidelines for creating monsters that will be balanced at a certain party level. If you want a monster that will be clearly overpowering like a dragon that would kill PCs in a single round, I don't see what prevents you from creating one.

Now I understand that the question is rather: but why doesn't the level 15 solo monster work out of the book for killing the level 3 fighter in a single round? As mentioned above, out-of-the-book means you apply the book rules and the book rules mean no level 15 solo against a level 3 party, for the reasons set out above. I don't see the point in arguing that you could do it; of course you could. The point is, that an adult red dragon is wayyyy too strong for a level 3 party, as mentioned by the OP. And to convey that wayyy-too-strongedness, I believe it requires that you simply deal damage which happens to be more than the fighter's HP with the dragon's breath weapon if that suits your fancy. If you're setting up a fight between a level 15 solo against a level 3 party, the intent is obviously to wipe out the level 3 party anway (if they can't flee), I see no reason to let the agony last more than a single round. By using a level 15 solo against the level 3 party, you're not following the rules anyway if that happens to be important to you, so you might as well tweak those dragon stats so that they make sense for a level 3 party.

Sky