Hybrid Classes

[Vael]

The swordmage hybrid seems really good to me, as you get the actual full Aegis, limited only in that you cannot retarget the mark, but once the marked foe is dropped or another mark supercedes yours, you regain the power. This to me, suggests some interesting options.

1. Warlock/Swordmage. Since warlock damage triggers only on warlock powers and only once per round anyway ... use Swordmage powers that can be activated on an aegis trigger. Mark and curse a brute, and shoot from a safe distance. Brute goes after you, party members can lay into him. Brute goes after someone else, you get more damage when your aegis triggers and you attack. Powers like Transposing Lunge or Thunder Riposte are great for this.

2. Cleric/Swordmage. Higher-level option, this really comes into it's own with the Wandering Swordmage Paragon Path, and at Epic, with the Total Aegis feat. The range you can mark gets huge, then get back and laser your foes. It's a great buff for your allies, and you can use any blade as an implement, not just Holy Avengers. Dwarf would be solid here.

3. Fighter/Swordmage. Mark a foe, go over to the other side of the battle and mark with fighter powers. Don't know if this works, but you might be able to regain your Aegis mark if you override it with your Fighter mark.

 

[Cor Azer]

I don't know if I could really comment whether the hybrid rules are overpowered or underpowered, but I think I like the idea, but I'm a bit iffier on the implementation.

My main concern with the implementation is that it now means that any new classes in future books also need to specify a roughly 1/2 to 1 page blurb about its hybrid version (well, unless an alternate means of detailing such is found). Adding a multiclass feat for each class isn't too tough, but in a book like the Player's Handbooks that have 8 new classes means an extra 8 pages. A much better implementation of the rules would be some sort of generic/algorithmic definition of how to build the hybrid version. Such a thing seems to exist, since several people in this thread already threw out ideas for the hybrid versions of the PH2 classes.

Assuming the Hybrid Talent feat is able to be taken multiple times, I wonder if it would be (or how badly) broken to open it up to anyone (ie, spend a feat to pick up another class ability that you otherwise don't have). So your beastmaster rangers could take it to pick up the prime shot feature they lost for not picking two-weapon or archery, etc... I wouldn't suggest letting it pick up alternate versions of the same ability (so you couldn't be both a brutal scoundrel and artful dodger rogue), so it might have limited applicability in that sense, but it think it would open up design space for alternate class features.

Also, with some minor tweaks, these hybrid rules could be used as a basis for those people who want apprentice level stuff (ie, at level 0, you have a single hybrid class with maybe 1 at will and 1 encounter, and then at level 1 you either move to the full version of your hybrid class or pick up a second, gaining the rest of a level 1 character's abilities (a second at will and your daily)).

 

[malcolm_n]

The swordmage's aegis and the paladin's divine challenge are seriously nerfed in hybrid-form.

without writing the full power, could you explain what they did to nerf them?

Are they only once per encounter?

Maybe they can only be used again after the target is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points?

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Vael]

without writing the full power, could you explain what they did to nerf them?

Are they only once per encounter?

Maybe they can only be used again after the target is reduced to 0 or fewer hit points?

Thank you for the clarification.

That is what they did for the Swordmage, the Paladin just got its Challenge Damage reduced.

 

[malcolm_n]

Thank you

So, is Hybrid Talent worded in such a way that a hybrid warlock cannot have eyebite from his class and take the feat to also gain Hellish Rebuke? Or is hybrid finally a way to get other warlock at-wills besides eldritch blast?

As an example, to be a better fey pact hybrid warlock, would I want to have Dire Radiance as my warlock at-will attack, then take hybrid talent for fey pact and also get eyebite and misty step?

Or, do you get eldritch blast handed to you and have to use the feat to get the other at-will?

 

[Nifft]

That is what they did for the Swordmage, the Paladin just got its Challenge Damage reduced.

Not exactly. The Swordmage mark is 1/encounter... but you get it back when the target drops, or someone else marks the target. (So basically: it's still at-will, but you can't use it while it's still in effect. They could have worded this one better.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

So, is Hybrid Talent worded in such a way that a hybrid warlock cannot have eyebite from his class and take the feat to also gain Hellish Rebuke? Or is hybrid finally a way to get other warlock at-wills besides eldritch blast?

As an example, to be a better fey pact hybrid warlock, would I want to have Dire Radiance as my warlock at-will attack, then take hybrid talent for fey pact and also get eyebite and misty step?

Or, do you get eldritch blast handed to you and have to use the feat to get the other at-will?

Hybrid Talent just gives you one class feature.

The class feature "Eldritch Pact" says this:

The pact you choose determines the following warlock abilities:
At-Will Spells: Your pact determines one of the at-will spells you know.

... so yeah, if you choose this class feature, you lose the choice of one of your at-will powers.

Hybrid Warlocks can't have a Pact and learn Eldritch Blast if they're not human, it seems.

Cheers, -- N

 

[malcolm_n]

Thank you for updating me on that.

I don't see the loss of 1-31 HP being too big of a deal. You're not a full-fledged fighter, so you don't have all of the tough guy-ness that one would. You're paying in Hit points what a multiclass character would pay in feats. Most hybrid classes will probably have at least a decent Con to make up for their lack of hit points. And there's always Toughness.

Granted, a warden|wizard loses out on 64 hp. Ouch; there's one of those bad combinations they talk about.
--

Okay, I now have the ph2 hybrids complete. Some of the more difficult ones were shaman, sorcerer, and invoker.

I used the structure they used with warlord when making the shaman hybrid, and let hybrid invokers get only their covenant manifestation. On sorcerer, I figured they have to pick a spellsource anyway, so they get the "X Soul" feature from that source; then clarify that a sorcerer cannot gain spellsource features other than from his chosen spellsource with Hybrid talent.

The rest of the PH 2 classes had enough similarities to other classes that their hybrid was easy to deduce. Anyway, it was a fun exercise for me. If anybody wants a copy of it for their use (no powers are written out, only explanations), I'll be happy to PM.

 

[deadsmurf]

My feeling on a fix so the striker classes can use their extra damage abilities would be give those abilities a special keyword, or something to the effect of

Sneak Attack (Hybrid Striker Damage)
Functions just as Sneak attack except cannot be used in conjuction with another Hybrid striker damage ability.

This works for all the strikers, and with a cleaned up wording, would work just great. Even can use them with Basic attacks then too!

I'm not sure what to do with the Defenders. But I'm not a fan of not being able to multi-mark with a Dragonborn's breath Weapon.

other things:
Wizards should get a little more than just cantrips (though they NEED them)... leave the implement mastery off, but maybe Ritual Caster with fewer rituals known and no recurring?

There are a lot of class features that are a lot better than others for the Feat, so that needs to be looked at a bunch.

This looks like a lot of fun, I wish it was being added to the character builder so I could play with some builds.

 

[keterys]

Deadsmurf that would result in broken hybrid strikers, unfortunately. It'd be a no brainer to hybrid with striker to non-striker.

I do think halving the striker damage effectively would work fine, though. I think that and give some form of other class feature (potentially in a slightly reduced capacity) would work well.

The swordmage and paladin marks both work as partial defenders - yes, they're less powerful but they pretty much have to be. I do think they could see some of the other class feature-ness here, like the swordmage "shield".

The fighter I just really don't like, though - or any of the 'only the powers from your class' ones - I think I'd prefer something like:

Combat Challenge (Hybrid)
This class feature functions as the fighter class feature
(Player’s Handbook, page 76), except that you can only make an immediate basic attack once per encounter.

Combat Superiority (Hybrid)
This class feature functions as the fighter class feature (Player's Handbook, page 76), except that you do not add your Wisdom to your attack bonus with opportunity attacks.

The hybrid article really did reawaken my gripes about wizard's lack of class features, though. Cantrips, indeed.