How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[bert1000]

Then drop the casting times and the costs also if you feel like it. Rituals costs and casting times are there to prevent the casters overshadowing skill using characters. However, if you are willing to accept some imbalance then there is little to loose by shortening casting times to enable some of them be cast in combat.
Alternatively let the players spend some resource to speed up casting line action points.

I actually like that this one takes 10min and lasts a long time (maybe too long...).

As others have said, it preserves the value of other abilities. If you want to be able to instantly understand a Mindflayer that you run into out of the blue, you take the language! This ritual is great if you have done research on an area and think it will be populated by X, or if you have run into a Mindflayer and think more are out there then you cast the ritual.

I do agree that some of the rituals have casting times that are too long or durations too long/short, but I like the basic system.

In one campaign, I have limited the ritual feat to the classes that get it as a class feature (so you can take Ritual Casting if you multiclass into one of those classes). Gives it a little more cost and preserves a little differentiation for Wizards, Bards, Clerics, etc. I also let Wizards cast a ritual of 5 levels or lower (min 1) for free each day.

 

[Mournblade94]

A +4 bonus to Strength in 3E might have done the same, if you were wielding a two-handed weapon. And it would have increased your Climb, Jump and Swim skill. Maybe that's totally irrelevant at the time of casting, and it stays that way. Maybe it becomes important just 3 rounds later, but you have forgotten that the effect applies to this, too. Maybe that's also totally unimportant, since with a +32 Jump modifier (without the buff) you don't have to worry about jumping a 20 ft wide area. Maybe it's important, since you modifier is only +7 normally for the same distance.

Something that seems like one effect actually has several. That's what makes them a little harder.

There is really nothing I am disagreeing with as far as the calculation difficulty of 4e. Maybe I should rephrase and say calculation from 3rd edition to 4e is like going from easy difficulty to very easy. As far as running games go I did not see any change in combat times. I leave bonuses up to the player, and I take care of the NPC bonuses.

I think that though you made the players life easier in 4e, alot was lost. I LIKED that the strength modifier increased skills. I liked the cascading effects.

Any player worth their salt should be able to account for every effect on their character even at epic levels. it is no worse than performing an office job. Also I submit that figuring out those cascading effects is part of the fun.

 

[Mallus]

Any player worth their salt should be able to account for every effect on their character even at epic levels. it is no worse than performing an office job.

It's no more entertaining than performing an office job, either.

 

[Barastrondo]

Any player worth their salt should be able to account for every effect on their character even at epic levels. it is no worse than performing an office job.

That's kind of damning with faint praise, isn't it?

 

[Hussar]

There is really nothing I am disagreeing with as far as the calculation difficulty of 4e. Maybe I should rephrase and say calculation from 3rd edition to 4e is like going from easy difficulty to very easy. As far as running games go I did not see any change in combat times. I leave bonuses up to the player, and I take care of the NPC bonuses.

I think that though you made the players life easier in 4e, alot was lost. I LIKED that the strength modifier increased skills. I liked the cascading effects.

Any player worth their salt should be able to account for every effect on their character even at epic levels. it is no worse than performing an office job. Also I submit that figuring out those cascading effects is part of the fun.

I think you're going to be fairly lonely in that position. Calculating cascading effects is rarely fun for most people. Frequently the cascading effects get totally forgotten about, or, worse, get remember ten seconds AFTER.

My current group has a cleric, two mages, and a druid. We have effects out the WAZOO. Between terrain effects, buffs, charms, buffs, direct damage, buffs, ongoing damage, buffs, summonings and more buffs, there is easily five or six effects going on at any given time, all of which may need multiple saving throws.

Then trying to remember what type each effect is so that you don't start stacking when you shouldn't can be an even bigger pain.

It really comes down to what your group looks like in the end. But, I don't think too many people count calculating cascading effects among the higher points of a session.

 

[alleynbard]

Any player worth their salt should be able to account for every effect on their character even at epic levels. it is no worse than performing an office job. Also I submit that figuring out those cascading effects is part of the fun.

Some players would rather the game not come to a screeching halt as they perform math that is "no worse than performing an office job." That isn't fun for me, it wasn't fun for my players. When accounting for every effect on your character becomes a chore after about 9th level, the game ceases to be fun for some people.

We aren't idiots. In my group I have a veterinarian technician, a school secretary, an art teacher, an accountant and office manager for an architecture firm, and a graphic designer. Those are careers that require a certain level intelligence, I think you would agree. It is not that we couldn't do the math. We could. But we didn't find the cascading effects of buffs to be very enjoyable. It didn't lend anything to the experience that made up for the frustration.

I suppose that means, by your standards, we aren't "worth our salt", but I think I am okay with that.

 

[Mallus]

That's kind of damning with faint praise, isn't it?

It's more like damning with damnation.

 

[TerraDave]

Yes: rituals. That is why I say it in my sig.

And now, we finally have almost enough, between PHBII, Arcane Power, and the FRPG. Almost enough.

To costly? Not really, but good DMs will give them, and components, as treasure.

In any case, my players have used rituals in every session, starting with the first one.

 

[Mournblade94]

Some players would rather the game not come to a screeching halt as they perform math that is "no worse than performing an office job." That isn't fun for me, it wasn't fun for my players. When accounting for every effect on your character becomes a chore after about 9th level, the game ceases to be fun for some people.

I must have a system down then, because even at 22nd level by the time a player had their turn with a new effect they were able to figure it out, and able to help those that were addition challenged. I think alot of these claims of math slowing the game down are quite exaggerated. We are not figuring out integrals, we are doing addition.

I suppose that means, by your standards, we aren't "worth our salt", but I think I am okay with that.

I originally said they SHOULD be able to do so. I did not say a player that does not enjoy it is not worth their salt.

 

[Intense_Interest]

alleynbard][/B]I suppose that means, by your standards, we aren't "worth our salt", but I think I am okay with that.

I must have a system down then, because even at 22nd level by the time a player had their turn with a new effect they were able to figure it out, and able to help those that were addition challenged. I think alot of these claims of math slowing the game down are quite exaggerated. We are not figuring out integrals, we are doing addition.

...

I originally said they SHOULD be able to do so. I did not say a player that does not enjoy it is not worth their salt.

So "Players have to master the Cascading bonus Accounting to enjoy the game" is the new "THAC0 kept the riff-raff out?" Good to know.

In my campaign, we usually play with at least a beer in us each by the time combat rolls around. We don't even want to do 1-square, 2-square diagonals, much less figure out what the happens to the Fighter's combat ability when the shortest-duration buff runs out.