Will WotC ever get it right?

Yes, that would be the result. And it might very well be fully intended. After all, we didn't get Metallic Dragons and Frost Giants in MM 1 either. ;)

But we dont have feats and powers dependent on, or only useful against, Frost Giants or Metallic Dragons either.

What WotC has done is present a false choice, again.
You arent getting a 29th level power, you're getting a power that can be built up to 29th level presented as a 29th level power.
Its worse when you consider the feats. You arent getting a valuable ability, you're getting an ability that only adds to underpowered powers presented as a full fledged feat.

Its the kind of 'system mastery' garbage that WotC said they were trying to avoid in the first place.

"Dont take Fire descriptors unless you're going to build your character them and take all the related feats."
 

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That could be true up to 13th level, but after that, you do replace Encounter and Daily powers with higher-level versions.
Yes, but not on a one-for-one basis. Meaning you don't swap out one single-target power for another single-target power, etc. You can swap out a single-target for a blast power if you want another, or vice-versa. It's about customization and optimization for your role. It's not that your level 29 AoE must be stronger than your level 25 AoE, but rather that if you want to you can focus on that and have both, instead of a single-target alternative.

At least, this is how I think the system is meant to work.
 

Yes, but not on a one-for-one basis. Meaning you don't swap out one single-target power for another single-target power, etc. You can swap out a single-target for a blast power if you want another, or vice-versa. It's about customization and optimization for your role. It's not that your level 29 AoE must be stronger than your level 25 AoE, but rather that if you want to you can focus on that and have both, instead of a single-target alternative.

At least, this is how I think the system is meant to work.

But if you want any kind of balance in the system then the best AOE, single target, penalty rider or etc power should be the 29th level. If the best AoE is 25th, the best single target is 21 and the best penalty is 29 then you've given a false choice to the player. Either by giving him too much benefit for the lower level powers or not enough for the higher level ones.
 

Well definitely 21 if not 1. The new epic destinies are even MORE crazy than previous ones. Gain temporary HPs equal to the HPs of the monster that killed you? Oooookay... 1600 temp HPs, woo hoo! Hehehe. "You can't win, Darth. If you strike be down I shall become more powerful then you can possibly imagine."
Which one gets this?
 

Why must every power be absolutely balanced to some mathematical formula that an observer makes up on the spot? Toss in conditions and ongoing damage. How do you value prone? Stunned? Weakened? Does it depend on the role? Do you give them point values? What is the valuation?

And what about damage types, does that change the numbers?

And if it does, what are you doing to make sure theme-builds aren't uniform in their abilities? If you're a thunder-sorcerer, does that mean every attack you have should be Close blast X with damage y+z and push w?

The more I examine the system, the more I think that they use similiar design for class powers as they do for Magic cards, in terms of target demographics. You have powers that exist to do pure damage and enable further damage (fireball), you then might have a power that's strategic but simple (thunderwave), followed by a power that creates a minigame that people can play around (stinking cloud), and lastly by a power for people who want random stuff to happen (prismatic ray).

But how do you balance those things when the powers are geared towards different purposes? I don't even mean different -tactical- purposes, but rather are each designed to hit different fun-buttons for each player type?

Try to figure out what player a power is designed for, or what purpose it serves before simply saying 'It's AoE, it should do so and so damage.'

So, comparing the two original powers....

Both are Thunder Attacks. If you're a Stormer, you're possibly taking both. It doesn't matter if one is more powerful than the other... taking the level 29 power makes you more powerful than not doing so. You don't have 'no choice.' You have four choices, minimum. You'll take neither power, both powers, only the 25, or only the 29. But because the choices aren't mutually exclusive, comparing them is pointless, because you're not -choosing between them.-

If you're in Fire-magic tho, the level 29 power is better, because fire powers reduce resistance. Chances are you're exploiting that anyways. Irrisistable flame + your Spell Source will mean that you'll be ignoring 35 points of resistance from this if you're in Fire.

If you're in Acid, you're not taking the level 29 power anyways. It isn't what you're after.

And if you're not doing a theme build, but a damage maximizing build, you're not taking -either- power. You're going into attacks that deal dice of damage on a miss, or that have even larger dice, or single-target attacks that put these bursts to shame for concentrated damage, or your going into a Spellfury build to milk your at-wills.

There IS no 'only one choice' here. If it seems so, it's because you made your choices before looking at the powers -anyways- and simply applying your own biases and preconcieved notions as to what powers you want.
 

But we dont have feats and powers dependent on, or only useful against, Frost Giants or Metallic Dragons either.

What WotC has done is present a false choice, again.
You arent getting a 29th level power, you're getting a power that can be built up to 29th level presented as a 29th level power.
Its worse when you consider the feats. You arent getting a valuable ability, you're getting an ability that only adds to underpowered powers presented as a full fledged feat.

Its the kind of 'system mastery' garbage that WotC said they were trying to avoid in the first place.

"Dont take Fire descriptors unless you're going to build your character them and take all the related feats."

Christ

Or maybe they made a freaking typo. Lay of the self-righteous nerdrage and think about what you are ranting about for a second.

4e is about 100 times more balanced than any other edition of D&D - have their been mistakes? Sure, but not nearly enough to justify that kind of anger you are presenting in this thread.
 

4e is about 100 times more balanced than any other edition of D&D - have their been mistakes? Sure, but not nearly enough to justify that kind of anger you are presenting in this thread.

It's harder in 4E to make a completely worthless character that dies on the first round of combat, but thats not the same as balanced. The spread on a character made with splat books and a high knowledge of the system and a character made by a beginner with the PHB is already so huge that 4E cannot be called anything close to balanced. It's hard to overcome things as busted as Gate and Shapechange, but 4E is quickly going there. Epic is already so crazy I'd hesitate to touch it.
 

It's harder in 4E to make a completely worthless character that dies on the first round of combat, but thats not the same as balanced. The spread on a character made with splat books and a high knowledge of the system and a character made by a beginner with the PHB is already so huge that 4E cannot be called anything close to balanced. It's hard to overcome things as busted as Gate and Shapechange, but 4E is quickly going there. Epic is already so crazy I'd hesitate to touch it.

Of course you can optimize some crazy combinations. That's only a natural bi-product in any game with literally millions of possible combinations for your characters.

And yes, epic might have an issue or two. But then again, all characters get the sick stuff, it's not limited to 1 or 2 classes. It's just epic (at least that's my stance until my players actually get there. I do not put much stock in 1-shots).

When that is said, it has absolutely nothing to do with what the OP is nerdraging about. He is going off like the whole book is one huge broken mistake, but in reality, it's one power that might or might not be suffering from a typo. I just made the comment because he was comparing it to 3.x. Let me remind you just how broken 3.x was in the core.

Druid
Cleric
Wizard

and that was just the classes. If i had to list the spells, especially those who should have been higher level, it would take a good while. More than I am willing to spend on this post anyway. Point is, balancewise, they are not in the same league.

I agree it's annoying when WotC make mistakes/typos and do not catch them. But the simple fact is that you miss these things when you create a class with 80 or so powers. You read and tweak them so many times that you stare yourself blind. You compare and look at spreadsheets. And then you have a great idea and make some changes, but forget to recheck afterwards. The OP should try it himself, it might give him a clue on how hard it is to keep the big picture while doing the small corrections all the time, making sure you have all the keywords, ranges, etc etc etc.
 

It's harder in 4E to make a completely worthless character that dies on the first round of combat, but thats not the same as balanced. The spread on a character made with splat books and a high knowledge of the system and a character made by a beginner with the PHB is already so huge that 4E cannot be called anything close to balanced. It's hard to overcome things as busted as Gate and Shapechange, but 4E is quickly going there. Epic is already so crazy I'd hesitate to touch it.

Where as in previous editions you can gimp your character simply by choosing the wrong class at level 1. :edu

Don't confuse the advantage -every- system gives you by knowing the system with some balance problems in the system itself, and don't even -try- to say that 4e's not set up with better balance than previous editions. You'll be wrong before I even say the words 'Second Edition Bard'
 


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