From 4E to GURPS: D&D and Simulationism

[underthumb]

I'm puzzled to how it is that Savage Worlds (and now BRP) came into it, given that the thread's (meant to be?) about 'D&D and Simulationism', and more specifically 'from 4e to GURPS' in fact.

I suppose people are just commenting on the "universal" part of GURPS, and comparing it to other universal systems. Which is fine, but again, I don't think any other system is as good at handling both gritty realism and crazy cinematic stuff. The fact that GURPS can run any genre you can throw at it (or all of them combined) is beside the point in this case.

 

[Ariosto]

Most games, I think, handle one end of the spectrum better.

GURPS Supers and Superworld more comfortably fit a scenario in which one extrapolates somewhat realistically the effects of super strength or firepower than one with more fidelity to comic-book tradition. The scale of ratings means that high-powered stuff tends to involve bigger numbers than in some other games.

Hero System inclines more the other way. Mechanical distinctions at the scale of normal humans are not so fine. (There's a similar problem in old-style D&D, with everything from a squirrel to an orc in the "one hit die" range.)

 

[WizarDru]

Can you elaborate on where you see it has weaknesses in dealing with high fantasy? It seems like everything is there if you want to build D&D-style adventures with cinematic combat and warriors absorbing huge amounts of damage (e.g., ablative damage resistance, Luck or Ultra Luck, spending character points on creating automatic successes, etc.).

Sorry, typo there: it should read high-LEVEL fantasy. I haven't played GURPS 4e, but I ran a high-fantasy game for 11 years in GURPS 3e quite successfully, so I'm not saying it can't...just that it suffered for several weaknesses that made it less suited than D&D for the game we were trying to play. When I revived that campaign setting earlier this year, I did so in D&D 4e.

GURPS is a wonderfully modular system, but some of it's sub-modules are (or were, at least) ridiculously over-complex. The GURPS Vehicles wheel-barrow comes to mind. Many of the modular systems offered solutions to the problems, but like D&D 3e, adding more rules or exceptions or what have you to a system renders it more counter-intuitive and less enjoyable, to my group at least. Issues like having to guard against min-maxing were exacerbated by the GURPS system The realistic combat meant could be deadly, regardless of level...and that sometimes that wasn't really appropriate or enjoyable (it remains a fact that the deadliest opponent my Supers players faced was not the evil super-villains, but a bunch of escaped mental patients armed with AK-47s.

Many of these same elements occurred for high-level fantasy play (or the GURPS equivalent of high point-value play). Of course, that term itself is a relative one and another potential weakness, depending on your tastes. Character development in GURPS is astoundingly slow, overall, and the traditional carrot-and-stick of the level system is not present here. Getting a new feat is nice, but when it takes you four sessions to get just one very basic feat...well, it's not quite as exciting...especially if it's part of a chain you're saving up for.

None of which is to say that any of these issues can't be addressed using the rules as written...they can be. But I've found that D&D now fills those needs with less work on my part and appeals more directly to my gaming style. I don't you'd be disappointed playing high-fantasy with either system.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Sorry, typo there: it should read high-LEVEL fantasy. I haven't played GURPS 4e, but I ran a high-fantasy game for 11 years in GURPS 3e quite successfully, so I'm not saying it can't...just that it suffered for several weaknesses that made it less suited than D&D for the game we were trying to play. When I revived that campaign setting earlier this year, I did so in D&D 4e.

GURPS is a wonderfully modular system, but some of it's sub-modules are (or were, at least) ridiculously over-complex. The GURPS Vehicles wheel-barrow comes to mind. Many of the modular systems offered solutions to the problems, but like D&D 3e, adding more rules or exceptions or what have you to a system renders it more counter-intuitive and less enjoyable, to my group at least. Issues like having to guard against min-maxing were exacerbated by the GURPS system The realistic combat meant could be deadly, regardless of level...and that sometimes that wasn't really appropriate or enjoyable (it remains a fact that the deadliest opponent my Supers players faced was not the evil super-villains, but a bunch of escaped mental patients armed with AK-47s.

I should note that the GURPS 4E rules have been significantly reworked to make cinematic and high-powered campaigns easier, as well as make submodules more coherent and simpler.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm puzzled to how it is that Savage Worlds (and now BRP) came into it, given that the thread's (meant to be?) about 'D&D and Simulationism', and more specifically 'from 4e to GURPS' in fact.

Now, SW and BRP are fine, and do what they do pretty well IMO, but what they don't do is anything like what GURPS does. Not at all.

But hey, no big deal.

I can't speak to Savage Worlds, but BRP (like its elder brother, RQ2) take a giant step towards simulationism compared to D&D, and so are pretty germane to the discussion.

I've run a short Dark Sun campaign very successfully using RQ2 rules with additional house-rules to support elements of the Dark Sun flavour. I've also run a couple of sessions so far of Eberron using RQ2, which fits very nicely with the 'film noir' pretensions of the original descriptions of Eberron.

cheers

 

[Aus_Snow]

I can't speak to Savage Worlds, but BRP (like its elder brother, RQ2) take a giant step towards simulationism compared to D&D, and so are pretty germane to the discussion.

Oh. Well, right y'are then. The impression I got from Savage Worlds was of something solidly in the opposite vein, so to speak. But yeah, now I think of it, I guess at least some implementations of BRP (or thereabouts) are more pro-simulationist (?) than D&D was. Um, or is.

And really, even SW might be more so. . .

 

[kitsune9]

I've read a number of threads pertaining to dissatisfaction with D&D 4e's treatment of HP, powers, and the like. The general thrust of the criticism is that many of the mechanics of 4e do violence to one's intuitions about how a given effect would manifest in the game world (e.g., HP as non-physical injury, enemies being pulled near you...somehow...via "Come and Get It", etc.). I share these sentiments, but I wonder whether those who are presently dissatisfied are playing the wrong game entirely. I wonder whether they should try GURPS 4e.

I've been a D&D player for decades, and it's only in the last year or two that I've picked up GURPS. While you can read plenty about GURPS elsewhere (and the starter rules are free), I think a number of complaints about 4e are expertly addressed by GURPS, rather than by D&D 3e.

For instance:

GURPS starts by trying to model what would happen in mundane reality. Thus all of its baseline rules exist to generate believable, realistic interactions within this reality. GURPS provides rules to completely bypass these expectations and use more cinematic rules (not to mention magic) but the point is you can always fall back on “what would likely occur in real life”. Should you choose to use the basic, “realistic” rule set, it means (among other things):

-Losing HP always represents some kind of physical injury, HP is mostly determined by strength, and HP can never go much higher than strength. This means that normal humans can be killed by just a few hits. GURPS Combat, like real world combat, becomes a matter of avoiding injury, rather than soaking it up.

-In combat, there are a collection of maneuvers that allow you to precisely specify how you will attack (or defend), in a way that is highly granular. So rather than simply “narrating” how some combat interaction happened, you can literally choose to lunge forward towards an enemy, land on one knee, and stab for his groin. There are specific rules for each of these maneuvers (see GURPS Martial Arts) allowing you to specify a complex set of actions for dealing with your foes, including feints, beats, ruses, called shots, disarms, acrobatic moves, etc. GURPS is also careful to note which actions are and are not “realistic” in terms of whether highly skilled humans can actually perform them. You decide whether you want to integrate them into your campaign.

Anyhow, these are just two examples. Have any of those who are dissatisfied with D&D 4e tried playing a fantasy game with GURPS 4e? If so, what were your experiences?

For the record, I’m presently GMing a Forgotten Realms game using the GURPS rule set.

I would like to play GURPS every once in a while. I have the 4e core books and Fantasy. I do like the simulation aspect of the game, but do need it a little more cinematic which I know they have the rules for that as well.

Unfortunately, my group is a "D&D only" fan club.

 

[jasynjonz]

So, I've played GURPS 4 and A lot of DnD, including 4 and Savage Worlds. My favorite system for everything we have discussed is the Hero System, which is very Gurpslike with a lot less tedious rule set for combat. So much depends on what your group likes that it would be hard to find a real answer here. I run a heavily home brew first edition ADD campaign and play in a 4e. I like everything, any rule set is just a tool.

As per this discussion, Savage Worlds might be the best balance I have seen and leaves a lot open to the gm to make it realistic.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Here is something GURPS is great at: Plausible setting design, especially when it comes to mixing and matching different elements.

Let's say you want to create a setting with a base technology similar to that of the WWI era. No problem - GURPS High-Tech has lots of support material for that tech level. Weapons, equipment, general implications of this tech, and so forth.

But let's also say you want to add in magic - and that magic is capable of bioengineering feats which in the real world we will likely only be capable of creating in another hundred years. So you can first decide on the magic system. Do you want the default system from the Basic Set/GURPS Magic? Or one of the variants from GURPS Thaumatology? Or something based on GURPS Powers instead? You have a far greater range of options than in pretty much any other RPG out there with these books alone (and yes, that definitely includes any edition of D&D!). And for the bio-tech creations, you only have to go to GURPS Bio-Tech and define your bio-tech tech level. As simple as that you have worked out the basic parameters of your setting.

And starting from there, you can work out the implications of your choices. Take combat and warfare - in which fields will which approach make the most sense? What kind of uses will magic, magical biotech, and mundane technology have? Which will contribute that?

The same questions can be asked for politics, society, communication, espionage... and by looking at all the possible combinations you can not only work out plausible answers, but come up with lots of great story and adventure ideas!

 

[Mircoles]

I'm puzzled to how it is that Savage Worlds (and now BRP) came into it, given that the thread's (meant to be?) about 'D&D and Simulationism', and more specifically 'from 4e to GURPS' in fact.

Now, SW and BRP are fine, and do what they do pretty well IMO, but what they don't do is anything like what GURPS does. Not at all.

But hey, no big deal.

I guess because they're multi-genre systems also. I prefer GURPS to either of them, though BRP does have some nostalgic appeal, it doesn't have quite the versatility of GURPS.

Savage Worlds has potential, but it seems to lack something in comparison to GURPS.