Why do dragons do so little damage?

[DracoSuave]

Dire bears are brutes. Brutes hit hard. It's what they do. And after they hit hard they... um... try again. That's it. Attack. Attack. Toe to toe.

Black Dragons are lurkers. They hit strategicly, using cover, stealth, and darkness. So the direbear will go into your face. The black dragon shows up out of nowhere, breaths acid on you, does some clawing, then buggers off into deep waters while you stand around wondering which direction it'll come from. Party gets in position, suddenly the black dragon splashes out from behind the wizard, hitting the weakest party members hard. Fighter marks him... and the dragon uses darkness to disappear again... perhaps even waiting until his breath weapon is on line again.

Are black dragons as scary as 5 dire bears when they go toe to toe? No. Are black dragons as easy to take down as 5 dire bears? Hell no. Dire Bears are -easy.- Black Dragons are TPW engines, IF played to their strengths.

 

[Lauberfen]

Really? Perhaps its a demonstration of something about people who read the manual, instead?

Ok, so the comparison of white dragon/dire bear may not be the best one.

But things like the black dragon's cloud of darkness tell me that it has not been seriously tested by a tough DM- the fact is, there is not reason it should ever be beaten while effectively invisible.

Also many other bits of the monster manual- the ogre savage (brute 8), for example, at only 1D10+5 damage, way below anything equivalent, or the guard drake (brute 2) with 1D10+9 damage effectively all the time.

These tell you that these monsters have not been given more than a cursory playtesting, because these mistakes are evident to any experienced DM at the first outing.

I'm not criticising the book particularly, and I love how easy and fun it is to build and run encounters, but it's packed full of mistakes which don't get errata'd.

[Edit] Ogre savage has of course been erata'd, to a slightly excessive 2D10+5 damage.

 

[cbbakke]

What makes a dragon powerful is not its ability to stand toe to toe with an oppenent but its other vast abilities.

Flying
Breath weapon
Other spells
ton of hps

The dragon hoovering 20 feet over the party raining death upon them is what makes the dragon powerful. As dragons get into the wyrm catagory them become pretty scary.

 

[keterys]

Cause a fight in which your enemy takes an action only once every three rounds is fun?

 

[SteveC]

Having run a combat with a dragon (Thunderspire) and had a battle with one in an RPGA event, I'll have to agree with those who are underwhelmed with a dragon. There are just too many abilities that can lock down a solo monster and deny it actions at present. Combine that with seriously weak damage, and you have a very anti-climactic battle.

More damage, more actions, and the ability to shake off effects would seem to be the recipe, but it just seems as if there's something fundamentally wrong with the design at this point.

--Steve

 

[chaotix42]

While we're comparing brutes, the azer rager & magma brute both take the cake for worst brute evar.

 

[interwyrm]

Actually if you look at the guidelines in the DMG for monster creation, lurkers and brutes are supposed to have equivalent damage.

"For attacks that have low accuracy (including brute attacks) and the high-damage attacks of lurker monsters, use the high normal damage column." (DMG p.184)

Furthermore, solos are supposed to have one encounter level power useable at-will. Encounter powers should use the limited damage expression columns.

Put that together, and a level 11 lurker should have an at-will attack that does 4d10+5 (9-45, ave. 27) damage.

The damage for the black dragon is undertuned. It may make up for that with its somewhat ridiculous defensive capability, but I think that just makes for an irritating fight.

 

[styker]

Actually if you look at the guidelines in the DMG for monster creation, lurkers and brutes are supposed to have equivalent damage.

"For attacks that have low accuracy (including brute attacks) and the high-damage attacks of lurker monsters, use the high normal damage column." (DMG p.184)

Furthermore, solos are supposed to have one encounter level power useable at-will. Encounter powers should use the limited damage expression columns.

Put that together, and a level 11 lurker should have an at-will attack that does 4d10+5 (9-45, ave. 27) damage.

The damage for the black dragon is undertuned. It may make up for that with its somewhat ridiculous defensive capability, but I think that just makes for an irritating fight.

Comparing to the brown dragon i think that the black dragon is missing a sneak attack. I like to give +1d6, +3d6 and +5d6 at heroic/paragon/epic.

 

[Runestar]

Cause a fight in which your enemy takes an action only once every three rounds is fun?

The designers came up with the dracolich and its myriad of stunning powers, did they not?

Effective, yes. Fun...

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

I think you just proved the original point.

Dragons are balanced around their level and role, but in doing so have lost (in some opinion) what has made them dragons.

In 3e, dragons did BIG damage AND flew AND had a breath etc etc. They were the pinnacle of power in some ways, afterall, there dragons!

4e dragons can be tough to fight, but there damage isn't what makes it so, and as people are arguing, there seem to be plenty of "lesser" monsters that do better in the damage department.

So, what you are saying is that Dragons shouldn't be balanced?