Visions of Avarice trivializes melee encounters?

[KarinsDad]

Everything has a reason to want to go somewhere - usually it might be to attack a PC, but maybe it's giving them a vision that the PC is over there. And extra juicy. And vulnerable. Or maybe it's something to mate with. Or that one color of prismatic puce they can't resist.

Remember that by core rules (Player's Handbook, early on in the power section) the flavor text is purely flavor text and may be completely replaced at the whim of the player with anything else appropriate. Doing so is not only a good idea in some cases, but can make the game more fun.

Still lame.

The default rule is that affected foes KNOWS what is happening to them. So, how come the foe does not know that it is affected by an illusion?

In a combat, nobody should want to stay "rooted to one spot". And once the foe knows that he was affected by an illusion (by making a save for example), he shouldn't be "fooled again" in the same combat by the same effect from the same spell.

But, the foe is "not fooled" with 4E illusions. They are not really illusions. They are real effects. They are real conditions. It's not illusory in any way, shape or form.

Illusions are all game mechanics now and no fluff. You don't fake out foes with them, you just throw a condition on them. The entire "the PC decides what the illusion is and the DM decides if it works" (even using rolls to do this) is gone. It's now just a condition like any other magic.

Yes, one can handwave it away and say (like you did) the foe sees something in its mind that causes it to act that way, but that is bogus too. In a similar situation, the same creature could act differently. Instead of moving towards a spot, it might want to move away for some reason. Exact same stimulus. But, that doesn't happen because illusions are just game mechanics now, no different than any other Slide or Push or whatever.

Cause Fear is how mental illusions should work. The NPC decides where it goes based on the NPC (i.e. DM decides based on the logic of how the NPC works), not based on the spell. The NPC could run away to the right or away to the left or straight away with Cause Fear. That doesn't happen with illusions.

Whatever. They gave it the name Illusions, but it's anything but that.

 

[Regicide]

Illusions are all game mechanics now and no fluff.

The entire game is all mechanics and no fluff. From unconscious sleep spells to tripping oozes to dying unconscious people who suddenly stop bleeding to death because a warlord shouts "hurrah!"

My main beef with illusions though is Illusory Ambush. Did they really need yet another way to drop the enemy's damage output as an at-will?

 

[Mistwell]

Still lame.

The default rule is that affected foes KNOWS what is happening to them. So, how come the foe does not know that it is affected by an illusion?

In a combat, nobody should want to stay "rooted to one spot". And once the foe knows that he was affected by an illusion (by making a save for example), he shouldn't be "fooled again" in the same combat by the same effect from the same spell.

But, the foe is "not fooled" with 4E illusions. They are not really illusions. They are real effects. They are real conditions. It's not illusory in any way, shape or form.

Illusions are all game mechanics now and no fluff. You don't fake out foes with them, you just throw a condition on them. The entire "the PC decides what the illusion is and the DM decides if it works" (even using rolls to do this) is gone. It's now just a condition like any other magic.

Yes, one can handwave it away and say (like you did) the foe sees something in its mind that causes it to act that way, but that is bogus too. In a similar situation, the same creature could act differently. Instead of moving towards a spot, it might want to move away for some reason. Exact same stimulus. But, that doesn't happen because illusions are just game mechanics now, no different than any other Slide or Push or whatever.

Cause Fear is how mental illusions should work. The NPC decides where it goes based on the NPC (i.e. DM decides based on the logic of how the NPC works), not based on the spell. The NPC could run away to the right or away to the left or straight away with Cause Fear. That doesn't happen with illusions.

Whatever. They gave it the name Illusions, but it's anything but that.

I know every time I hear certain songs, they will get stuck in my head for a long time (AKA "ear-worms"). I know this, for sure. And yet, they still get stuck in my head every time I hear them, even with that foreknowledge. That is how this kind of illusion works. Just because you know it is an illusion, that does not mean you "won't be fooled" by this kind of thing. They are the ear-worms of the illusion school of magic.

So the player can describe the effect, and the mechanics behind it decide the result, but that does not make it any less an illusion which the player describes, and the DM can still adjust things based on the description (and the rules allow for such an adjustment).

I get that you don't like a lot of aspects of 4e. But, I also think with some more imaginative effort on your part, you could come up with ways for the rules to work with the fluff you are looking for.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I don't think you're reading it correctly. It's "sustain minor: the zone persists. When you sustain the power, you can repeat the attack as a minor action". The minor action to repeat the attack is in addition to the minor action used for the sustain. If it were the same action, it would say so.

All I can say is, to me it's obviously refering to the same minor action. If it weren't, there would be no need to sustain the power to repeat the attack.

I suppose CustServ must rule!

 

[keterys]

The second minor action to attack being after the sustain minor prevents someone who is, say, dazed, from making the attack then _not_ sustaining it. I have seen at least one other example of a power that had a sustain, then had a different action under the sustain to attack (it was a sustain minor and a standard to do the attack, though I don't recall which power it was)

If the quote given for the wording is correct, then the attack is not part of the sustain by RAW. RAI? Meh, not worth arguing

 

[KarinsDad]

I get that you don't like a lot of aspects of 4e. But, I also think with some more imaginative effort on your part, you could come up with ways for the rules to work with the fluff you are looking for.

I get it. If someone handwaves away the stupidity and pretends that they are 10 years old again, the spell works (btw, this "too much imagination" comment was just as insulting as your "lack of imagination" comments about me).

But, the players at my table are adults. Adults for whom some stupid rules jar.

Just because the word illusion is put into a power does not mean that it seems like an illusion in the game. Visions of Avarice seems more like telekinesis than illusion. You are pulled and held in this location does NOT sound like an illusion at all.

I've read over the illusion spells and very few of them seem (i.e. feel) like illusions, even mental illusions. Yup, anyone can put the rationalization in if forced to do so. It would just be better if one wasn't forced to do that.

And btw, I like many aspects of the game system. It doesn't feel like DND to me, but I like playing the game. This happens to be an area where I think they dropped the ball. They had nearly a year to come up with cool illusion design and they fubared. IMO.

Remember that by core rules (Player's Handbook, early on in the power section) the flavor text is purely flavor text and may be completely replaced at the whim of the player with anything else appropriate. Doing so is not only a good idea in some cases, but can make the game more fun.

Just FYI, the effects portion of the spell states that is illusory treasure, not just the flavor portion.

Effects: The power's area becomes a zone of illusory treasure...

 

[Nail]

All I can say is, to me it's obviously refering to the same minor action. If it weren't, there would be no need to sustain the power to repeat the attack.

These sorts of mistakes are easy to do. Don't feel bad; just read over the text of the power (slowly) again.

For reference:

Effect: The power's area becomes a zone of illusory
treasure that lasts until the end of your next turn. Once
per turn, you can make the following attack, using the
zone as the origin square.
    Minor Action           Close burst 5
    Target: Each enemy in burst
    Attack: Intelligence vs. Will
    Hit: The zone pulls the target 3 squares. A target that ends
         this movement within the zone or adjacent to the zone is
          immobilized (save ends).
Sustain Minor: The zone persists. When you sustain the
power, you can repeat the attack as a minor action.

See how the indents work? Look at the effect: what is the "following attack" you get to make? What action does it take to make that attack?

 

[DreamChaser]

The second minor action to attack being after the sustain minor prevents someone who is, say, dazed, from making the attack then _not_ sustaining it. I have seen at least one other example of a power that had a sustain, then had a different action under the sustain to attack (it was a sustain minor and a standard to do the attack, though I don't recall which power it was)

Flaming Sphere...sustain minor, attack standard.

DC

 

[kerbarian]

I just thought of a way to slightly mitigate this power: heal checks. If you have a big pile of melee guys all immobilized next to each other, they can spend their standard actions making heal checks to try to grant each other extra saves. Anyone who's granted a save before their turn (and makes it) gets to move away.

It doesn't help all that much, though. It should be pretty easy to position the zone so that you can pull in 2 or 3 enemies and not have them end up adjacent to each other (on the corners of the zone), so they'd be out of heal check range.

I'm trying to think of some way creatures with reach could help each other even if they're not adjacent, but I'm not coming up with anything. You can only bull rush an adjacent creature. You can grab a creature within your reach, but then there's no way to pull it closer if you can't move yourself.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It creates a one-square zone (sustain minor) that lets you make a minor-action attack each round. The attack is a burst 5 from the zone that pulls enemies 3 squares towards the zone and then, if they're in or adjacent to the zone, immobilizes them (save ends). So it effectively immobilizes within a burst 4.

My wizard used this in a fight recently, ...
The fight was an eidolon, a big spider, and waves of 40 minions in 10 minion bundles.

He kept 80% of the minions, the spider, and the eidolon on permanent lockdown the whole fight.

So, let me add this up: .8 * 40 + 1 + 1 = 34 creatures. Now, exactly how did they all fit into 9 squares (zone + adjacent squares)? Or, is there some key piece of the power that contradicts the OP?