Higher than level 30?

Approaching 30th level should be like approaching the speed of light.

The closer you get, the harder it is to get there.

If I were running an Epic tier group, there would be more game sessions than usual between levels.

That would certainly make sense from a story perspective, but clearly WotC were looking at things from a gamer perspective, when they made EXP scale evenly from Heroic through Epic tiers. Do gamers want to have to play ten times as long to ascend levels? I don't think so.

In earlier D&D editions and now in 4.0E, I have always enjoyed playing level 07 and higher. So I want to move quicker through the lower levels, savor the mid levels, then advance even slower when the playable life of my character is near ending.

I am starting a new 3.5E game tomorrow, and the DM asked for some game suggestions. I suggested that we start at first level and move through the first six levels in one game session each.
 

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Approaching 30th level should be like approaching the speed of light.

The closer you get, the harder it is to get there.

If I were running an Epic tier group, there would be more game sessions than usual between levels.



In earlier D&D editions and now in 4.0E, I have always enjoyed playing level 07 and higher. So I want to move quicker through the lower levels, savor the mid levels, then advance even slower when the playable life of my character is near ending.

I am starting a new 3.5E game tomorrow, and the DM asked for some game suggestions. I suggested that we start at first level and move through the first six levels in one game session each.


Lots of people feel this way and it makes me wonder if the "sweet spot" of 3E is something that was more of a player induced phenomena rather than a design flaw. Not criticizing your opinion or 3e...just food for thought.
 

Howdy wingandsword! :)

wingsandsword said:
Ever since 2e there has been that tier above Greater God, the Overpowers/Overdeities.

Actually those have existed since OD&D.

They tend to be transcendental beyond normal mortal, or even deific affairs and generally only concern themselves with matters of truly cosmic importance.

Exactly, they are for the most part unknown. For anyone wanting to play a 30+ campaign my suggestion is that you lift the veil on these mysterious beings.

Very little that even the mightiest mortals can do with the mightiest artifacts can even marginally affect them,

Would level 31+ PCs be 'mortal'? I don't think so.

and even numerous Greater Gods or entire Pantheons amassed cannot overwhelm them or even seriously challenge them.

Arguable, Tharizdun was challenged and imprisoned.

Only under the most incredible and truly extreme circumstances could a mortal even inconvenience or gain a momentary victory over them. They generally only concern themselves only with what happens on their own plane (or material world), but within that world they have virtually infinite power.

All power is relative, even infinite power.

The typical one is an omnipotent creator deity that created a material world and the original deities of that world but now is so hand-off that they barely notice things happening on a mortal level, and only significant strife or discord on a divine level or something that truly imperils the very existence or fundamental balance of the world itself would be endangered, and then they are capable of massive unilateral action such as creating new Greater Gods, stripping gods of their power, creating whole new races, creating worlds, totally rewriting the rules of magic, generally edition-level changes (since this level of deity has been hauled out to explain the 1e to 2e shift in Forgotten Realms, the 2e to 3e transition in Die Vecna Die, and the 2e to Saga to 3e transition in Dragonlance).

Obviously something has to be able to affect these beings, otherwise their inclusion (as opponents) is pointless.

The ones I know of: Highgod/Chaos on Krynn, Ao of Realmspace, The Lady of Pain, The Serpent (aka Mok'slyk), the Dark Powers of Ravenloft

The Serpent one is problematic since it is the only being of this scale that really acts beyond one world or plane, it appears to be native or home in Greyhawk but thanks to that notoriously bad module Die Vecna Die it meddles on the Outer Planes and in Ravenloft, and is stated to be of the same origin or class of being as the Lady of Pain herself

None of the above remotely begin to tax my divine hierarchy.

Mortals < Demigods < Gods < Sidereals (aka Overgods) < Eternals (aka Time Lords) < Supernals (aka Supreme Beings) < Ultrals (hypothetical strata).

I would definitely not say that Tharizdun is of that scale, he was explicitly given Divine Rank 11 (low-end Intermediate Deity) in his 3e writeup in Dragon #294, although from what I gather 4e implies he's a little more powerful than a typical midrange deity.

As already mentioned, that is for the imprisoned form of Tharizdun. Try reading the Gary Gygax' Gord the Rogue novels (specifically Dance of Demons) for more information on Tharizdun.

In other words, I don't care if PC's are 100th level, they generally shouldn't be able to directly confront one of these things in any edition.

Thats because you are thinking of levels in a linear fashion. Think of them as a pyramid tapering to a point...or at least to a plateau with a big eye at the top. ;)

They are able to make and unmake entire planets and pantheons, annihilate entire pantheons, rewrite the rules of magic, and generally exist to be an in-game form of DM fiat.

If overgods are to gods as gods are to mortals then it stands to reason that a group of powerful gods could do battle with a (relatively weak) overgod. Just like a group of mortals could battle with Demogorgon, Tiamat or Vecna.

At best, they could use very powerful artifacts and/or truly unique circumstances to achieve a momentary advantage such as to escape it's wrath (like staging an escape from Ravenloft), distract a particularly mentally weak one (like imprisoning Chaos in the Greygem), or find a reason to receive a boon so great that it surpasses anything that could be won in battle (like Ao granting Midnight status as a Greater Goddess during the Time of Troubles so she could replace the slain Mystra, that's a mortal spellcaster suddenly becoming the second most powerful deity on the planet thanks to very unique circumstances with an Overdeity)

There are any number of interesting ways to bridge these gaps.
 

Exactly, they are for the most part unknown. For anyone wanting to play a 30+ campaign my suggestion is that you lift the veil on these mysterious beings.
My suggestion is that there are certain beings that are so powerful, so awesome that the are always, and will always, be beyond the reach of even the gods themselves.


Would level 31+ PCs be 'mortal'? I don't think so.
You don't become a god just by getting more levels. Gods aren't just beings with more levels than the PC's, they are an entire other level of being that isn't just adding 1 to your level count. Will you naturally die of old age if you don't use necromantic trickery to cheat death? Will you die if I plunge a sword into your heart or take your head with an executioners axe? Will you die if a God of Death says your time has come and really means it? If the answer to any of these questions is "yes" then you are mortal.


Obviously something has to be able to affect these beings, otherwise their inclusion (as opponents) is pointless.
Most of these were never included to be direct opponents, most of these beings have always been narrative devices and not antagonists. Lord Ao, Overgod of Realmspace, is an uber-plot-device used to explain edition-level changes. By fiat alone he was able to strip every deity in Realmspace of their divine rank and exile them to the Material Plane, and the closest he got to stats was in the 2e Faiths & Avatars book that essentially said his stats are "He wins against any mortal or god, end of story". The Lady of Pain was explicitly and intentionally never given stats because she is so beyond any conceivable ken that there was no point in it (it wasn't until 3e she was even given an alignment of LN). The Dark Powers of Ravenloft can never even really be "confronted", the only way you really "oppose" them is to try to escape from Ravenloft (in some Ravenloft campaign styles), and even then are you winning or are they letting you out?.



None of the above remotely begin to tax my divine hierarchy.

Mortals < Demigods < Gods < Sidereals (aka Overgods) < Eternals (aka Time Lords) < Supernals (aka Supreme Beings) < Ultrals (hypothetical strata).
So you have your own homebrew divine hierarchy that supports your ideas. Have lots of fun with that in your home campaign. For purposes of the normal D&D worlds and multiverse however, that really isn't relevant.


As already mentioned, that is for the imprisoned form of Tharizdun. Try reading the Gary Gygax' Gord the Rogue novels (specifically Dance of Demons) for more information on Tharizdun.
I am sure in the Gord novels Tharizdun is made out to be a very, very powerful deity because it is a necessity to establish an antagonist as powerful as a literary device, but powerful on the scale of an Overdeity that creates entire worlds, could destroy the world and start over if it really wanted to, can elevate and strips pantheons of power, and can make edition-level changes to reality?

Thats because you are thinking of levels in a linear fashion. Think of them as a pyramid tapering to a point...or at least to a plateau with a big eye at the top. ;)
In D&D, levels are linear. I have actually played 100th level AD&D characters, in 1e and 2e (Throne of Bloodstone). Those characters have more HP and NWP slots than 20th level characters, but not much else. If you use the High Level Campaigns rules from 2e then they are a little beefier by 30 than they were at 20, but from 30 to 100 it doesn't spiral up in power that much. In 3e, a 100th level PC has more BAB/Epic Attack Bonus, HP, Saves, Skill points ect, but it's linear progression. In AD&D, 100th level PCs are still very vulnerable to dying from divine-level threats (which Throne of Bloodstone throws at you), and even a 100th level party might be able to take on some of the deities in 3e Deities and Demigods or Faiths and Pantheons, but some of the more powerful and combat oriented ones with Salient Divine Abilities that let them kill any number of nondivine beings across any range (including interplanar) with no save or SR, or can regenerate from any injury or even apparent destruction inflicted by any being that isn't a deity of their own rank or higher, those kind of abilities mean that there are some deities that mortals (i.e. anything without a Divine Rank) really just can't fight even if they were 1000th level.

If overgods are to gods as gods are to mortals then it stands to reason that a group of powerful gods could do battle with a (relatively weak) overgod. Just like a group of mortals could battle with Demogorgon, Tiamat or Vecna.
The problem is, it's been explicitly stated many times over in the source material that these beings are so powerful that they can defeat even the mightest god with negligible effort. The Lady of Pain can, and has, killed Greater Gods in the blink of an eye. Lord Ao merely made a proclamation and the countless deities of Abeir-Toril were instantly stripped of Divinity and exiled to the Material plane until he decided otherwise. They exist on a level of reality so removed and transcendental it would be akin to even the mightiest boss monster in World of Warcraft attacking you the actual player in reality from your computer. No matter how mighty it is to the characters, to a person in our reality it's just something we can walk away from or turn off and ignore even it's greatest attacks as a pretty picture.

The only real examples I can think of a being on this scale being directly opposed are of Chaos in Dragonlance and The Snarl in Order of the Stick (which may well qualify as a being of this class due to it being formed from the collective power of all the 4 pantheons original deities of the world, and I was trying to keep this to official D&D worlds, but the Snarl does make a very good example of this idea.) Both of those are ones that are particularly mentally weak and fooled/deceived/manipulated. The Snarl can kill even Greater Gods with one swipe of it's claw (it killed Zeus in one hit IIRC), and if unleashed could unmake the world in only a few minutes, but was able to be imprisoned first by three pantheons working together in concert, then when that prison began to fail by an Epic levels party and exist as the Macguffin in the main plot of the series. If, and that's a big if, you want to have one as an antagonist you would need to give it huge, gaping flaws that make it weaker in one or more aspects than most beings of it's class such as giving it a childlike or animallike intellect to go with nigh-infinite power instead of the limitless mental prowess most beings of this class have.

There are any number of interesting ways to bridge these gaps.
If you want to make D&D a game of ever increasing levels taking on yet more and more powerful deities and overdeities, sure, it's your game and have fun. However, with the established and conventional D&D settings and multiverse there are some places mortals shall never go, and some things that really are always too big.
 

Howdy wingandsword! :)

wingsandsword said:
My suggestion is that there are certain beings that are so powerful, so awesome that the are always, and will always, be beyond the reach of even the gods themselves.

Indeed. But just as gods are beyond mortals, but the weakest of gods are not wholly beyond the most powerful of mortals then so must the weakest of Overgods be threatened by the most powerful gods.

You don't become a god just by getting more levels. Gods aren't just beings with more levels than the PC's, they are an entire other level of being that isn't just adding 1 to your level count. Will you naturally die of old age if you don't use necromantic trickery to cheat death? Will you die if I plunge a sword into your heart or take your head with an executioners axe? Will you die if a God of Death says your time has come and really means it? If the answer to any of these questions is "yes" then you are mortal.

Correct, you don't just become a god just by gaining more levels. But mechanically thats the easiest way to move forward, so gaining levels will be a part of the process. Though other aspects, such as gaining worshippers, can be as integrated as DMs wish.

Most of these were never included to be direct opponents, most of these beings have always been narrative devices and not antagonists.

Irrelevant. Just because they haven't been direct opponent in the past doesn't preclude them from being direct opponents in the future.

Lord Ao, Overgod of Realmspace, is an uber-plot-device used to explain edition-level changes. By fiat alone he was able to strip every deity in Realmspace of their divine rank and exile them to the Material Plane, and the closest he got to stats was in the 2e Faiths & Avatars book that essentially said his stats are "He wins against any mortal or god, end of story".

That could be AO based propaganda to scare away gods from ever trying to beat him. I'm thinking he'll be in his mid-fifties, thats in 4E Levels, not his apparent age. ;)

The Lady of Pain was explicitly and intentionally never given stats because she is so beyond any conceivable ken that there was no point in it (it wasn't until 3e she was even given an alignment of LN).

Off the cuff I'd guesstimate shes akin to a Level 50 Solo Controller.

The Dark Powers of Ravenloft can never even really be "confronted", the only way you really "oppose" them is to try to escape from Ravenloft (in some Ravenloft campaign styles), and even then are you winning or are they letting you out?.

If their power is constrained to one world (?) then I'd suggest in the region of Level 42-46 ish Solo opponents.

So you have your own homebrew divine hierarchy that supports your ideas. Have lots of fun with that in your home campaign. For purposes of the normal D&D worlds and multiverse however, that really isn't relevant.

Well actually it is relevant, because it expands upon the official cosmology, which is something you need to do for 30+ campaigns. For the record it was published as an introduction to my epic bestiary and was pretty well received (if I do say so myself). It draws upon occult, mythical, fantasy and scientific sources as well as all tying neatly into the D&D cosmology.

I am sure in the Gord novels Tharizdun is made out to be a very, very powerful deity because it is a necessity to establish an antagonist as powerful as a literary device, but powerful on the scale of an Overdeity that creates entire worlds, could destroy the world and start over if it really wanted to, can elevate and strips pantheons of power, and can make edition-level changes to reality?

Yes. He destroyed the Universe, was able to kill any god in an instant, devoured a demon prince in seconds, then raised another minor demon to be a demon prince in seconds. Could only be affected by one weapon in the Universe.

In D&D, levels are linear. I have actually played 100th level AD&D characters, in 1e and 2e (Throne of Bloodstone). Those characters have more HP and NWP slots than 20th level characters, but not much else. If you use the High Level Campaigns rules from 2e then they are a little beefier by 30 than they were at 20, but from 30 to 100 it doesn't spiral up in power that much. In 3e, a 100th level PC has more BAB/Epic Attack Bonus, HP, Saves, Skill points ect, but it's linear progression.

Heres the flaw in your thinking: this is 4th Edition...not 3rd, not 2nd, not 1st, not OD&D. That means we have the opportunity to taper power to a point, rather than continue infinitely, which is ultimately pointless.

In AD&D, 100th level PCs are still very vulnerable to dying from divine-level threats (which Throne of Bloodstone throws at you), and even a 100th level party might be able to take on some of the deities in 3e Deities and Demigods or Faiths and Pantheons, but some of the more powerful and combat oriented ones with Salient Divine Abilities that let them kill any number of nondivine beings across any range (including interplanar) with no save or SR, or can regenerate from any injury or even apparent destruction inflicted by any being that isn't a deity of their own rank or higher, those kind of abilities mean that there are some deities that mortals (i.e. anything without a Divine Rank) really just can't fight even if they were 1000th level.

...and that could be a problem if we were playing 3E, or if indeed our progression didn't encapsulate immortality/divinity.

The problem is, it's been explicitly stated many times over in the source material that these beings are so powerful that they can defeat even the mightest god with negligible effort. The Lady of Pain can, and has, killed Greater Gods in the blink of an eye. Lord Ao merely made a proclamation and the countless deities of Abeir-Toril were instantly stripped of Divinity and exiled to the Material plane until he decided otherwise.

So who wins in a fight between AO and the Lady of Pain? Can the Dark Powers of Ravenloft defeat the Serpent? Does Galactus defeat Azathoth? ;)

They exist on a level of reality so removed and transcendental it would be akin to even the mightiest boss monster in World of Warcraft attacking you the actual player in reality from your computer. No matter how mighty it is to the characters, to a person in our reality it's just something we can walk away from or turn off and ignore even it's greatest attacks as a pretty picture.

Yes, but the intention with 30+ (4E) games is to explore the level of reality so removed and transcendental...etc.

The only real examples I can think of a being on this scale being directly opposed are of Chaos in Dragonlance and The Snarl in Order of the Stick (which may well qualify as a being of this class due to it being formed from the collective power of all the 4 pantheons original deities of the world, and I was trying to keep this to official D&D worlds, but the Snarl does make a very good example of this idea.) Both of those are ones that are particularly mentally weak and fooled/deceived/manipulated. The Snarl can kill even Greater Gods with one swipe of it's claw (it killed Zeus in one hit IIRC), and if unleashed could unmake the world in only a few minutes, but was able to be imprisoned first by three pantheons working together in concert, then when that prison began to fail by an Epic levels party and exist as the Macguffin in the main plot of the series. If, and that's a big if, you want to have one as an antagonist you would need to give it huge, gaping flaws that make it weaker in one or more aspects than most beings of it's class such as giving it a childlike or animallike intellect to go with nigh-infinite power instead of the limitless mental prowess most beings of this class have.

I still think you are not seeing the big picture here, by the time PCs would be taking on the likes of AO, they would be practically Overgods themselves. So we wouldn't necessarily have to give each overgod a Death Star style exhaust port weak spot.

If you want to make D&D a game of ever increasing levels taking on yet more and more powerful deities and overdeities, sure, it's your game and have fun. However, with the established and conventional D&D settings and multiverse there are some places mortals shall never go, and some things that really are always too big.

Too big and scary for most PCs sure, but I envision there are always those who wish to boldly go where no one has gone before. :D
 

Lots of people feel this way and it makes me wonder if the "sweet spot" of 3E is something that was more of a player induced phenomena rather than a design flaw. Not criticizing your opinion or 3e...just food for thought.

Since this preference is of my creation, and is shared by most players I know, it is definitely "a player induced phenomena".

The opinion tends to be that player enjoyment increases when their character can do more, but mot too much.

Both "more" and "too much" are subjective, and your mileage may vary.
 

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