Charging with Spring Attack?

[FoxWander]

I knew I shouldn't have brought up that stuff about actions. Now everything is so sidetracked that the "action problem" part of this discussion should probably be forked into another thread. But, as part of that discussion is relevant to the OP of charging with spring attack, I'll press on with it for just a bit.

I was going to bring up the excellent point that thedmstrikes already mentioned, namely that, with the Boots, one can already do a charge attack and then move again after. The charge attack is your standard action so you still have a move action left. The only benefit you would get out of this scenario by having the Spring Attack feat, is not provoking AOOs from the person you charged and attacked. I'm of the opinion that someone with Spring Attack would get that benefit in this situation. I'll try to explain why without getting into the semantics of action types.

• The spring attack feat allows you to run up, hit someone, then run away again, apparently fast enough that the guy you hit can't try to hit you when you run away- and that's normally all you could do that round.
  
• A charge allows you to run up and use your momentum to hit someone really hard and that's normally all you could do that round.
  
• If you have Boots of the Battle Charger, then twice a day you can do a shorter charge to hit someone really hard and still be able to run away again afterward- but you'd normally have to worry about giving your target a chance to hit you when you ran away.

So, if Spring Attack allows you to run-hit-run without worrying about being hit in return, why would you not get the benefit of that feat just because you're using the boots to make that hit in the middle a harder hit than normal?

 

[Arkhandus]

Leaving aside the fact that it just doesn't work within the rules.......

A charge is a high-impact, reckless rush where you use momentum to more easily hit your opponent before they can dodge or whatever. It takes a moment to recover from that impact and regain a defensive posture, just like a linebacker slamming into another big guy in football, you can't just regain your steady posture immediately and keep on running, let alone turn around and run the other way without some delay and momentary awkwardness in the turn. That's why charge gives you an attack bonus and AC penalty, it doesn't let you maintain full defenses at the same time as the reckless charge.

Just try running into a wall and see if you can spin around right after impact and resume running in the other direction without a pause from the impact and turning around. Seriously, if you think it's that easy to do a full 180 and keep running afterward, let alone quick enough not to expose yourself to a quick attack. Just because the enemy got slammed into by your charge doesn't mean they're stunned and unable to swing a sword in your general direction as they stumble.

Spring Attack assumes you're moving at a fast walk or a light jog, at most, not a full run or a fast jog. It's a lot easier to turn when you move at a low speed and thus have only light inertia carrying you in one direction. It's simple physics.

 

[FoxWander]

Yes, I completely agree with that. Without magic boots that change the rules you cannot charge and use the spring attack feat. They both, separately, use up your entire round of activity and so they can't be combined.

But I'm asking how it works with the boots. For anyone who doesn't have the MIC here's the entire relevant quote from the book- "boots of the battle charger allow you to make a charge attack as a standard action (rather than a full-round action), though the charge only includes movement up to your speed (rather than double your speed). You must make the charge attack in the round you activate the boots, or the effect is lost."

Now you've got something that changes the rules. Specifically, the boots allow you to use a standard action to (charge) attack. Since, as it's been pointed out, if "attack action" is short-hand for using a standard action to attack, it would seem (to me at least) that with the boots a charge attack IS compatible with the spring attack feat. The boots allow that standard action/"attack action" to be a charge attack- then spring attack allows you to move again afterwards (which you can do anyway after a charge with the boots) without provoking AoOs from your target. It even works with the movement restrictions imposed by both the boots and spring attack- you can't move more than your speed.

And honestly, what's the problem with this? You need three feats and a magic item to pull off a moderately easier attack twice a day! Even if you add pounce cheese on top- how is this a game breaker?

 

[Foxworthy]

And honestly, what's the problem with this? You need three feats and a magic item to pull off a moderately easier attack twice a day! Even if you add pounce cheese on top- how is this a game breaker?

It's not just charge though, technically you'd be allowing all the Tome of Battle standard action melee attacks to be combined with Spring Attack as well.

It evens open up a huge can of worms with Shot on the Run since it would then allow things like Many Shot, or even a huge Sneak Attack/Greater Manyshot attack.

Now it probably won't break the game by itself, but I personally haven't tried it out so I'm not sure of all the possible ramifications.

 

[FoxWander]

Wow, you brought up a good point about the ramifications with other feats- I hadn't considered that. So it led me to a bit of research that showed the difference between standard actions and the more specific "attack action"- and now I'm forced to a conclusion I don't like, but at least I understand. Spring attack and charge don't work together, even if it's only a standard action to charge.

I'll explain: I went to look into any other posts/rulings on manyshot and shot on the run- since they have almost the exact wording as the problem here. Manyshot is a standard action (just like charging with BotBC) and shot on the run calls for the attack action (in fact it reads exactly like spring attack). Not surprisingly, the Main D&D 3.5 FAQ has dealt with this exact question and, luckily, they actually explain their answer rather than whipping off a yes or no.

Of course, the answer lies in the annoying (to me) standard action/attack action confusion (apparently it was just me who was confused). What I couldn't get before is that while, obviously, "attack" is merely a certain type of standard action, the point (which I kept missing) is that it is a SPECIFIC standard action and not interchangeable with just any standard action. Since shot on the run and spring attack are specifically limited to the attack action, that means they can't be used with any standard action which happens to include an attack.

That being said, just because I understand why it doesn't work, and the reason for it, doesn't mean I like it. In the case of someone with spring attack doing a boot-powered charge and moving after- the sequence is so similar to a "normal" spring attack that I'd allow them to get the feat benefits in my game even if it's not RAW. Now I just need to talk my DM into the same point of view.

 

[Arkhandus]

.....except that it doesn't make sense from the standpoint that charging is a reckless, fast attack that specifically leaves you more open to retaliation (-2 AC), so it doesn't make any rational sense that Spring Attack should let you easily avoid retaliation after the reckless attack. You're leaving yourself open with the charge and shouldn't be able to automatically move away without any chance of retaliation.

And I frankly don't see why you want so badly to charge as a standard action then spring away scot-free, rather than just stepping in and out normally with Spring Attack and a normal attack, unless it's for a hugely broken full-attack charge combo with martial maneuvers or psionic powers or whatnot.

 

[FoxWander]

.....except that it doesn't make sense from the standpoint that charging is a reckless, fast attack that specifically leaves you more open to retaliation (-2 AC), so it doesn't make any rational sense that Spring Attack should let you easily avoid retaliation after the reckless attack. You're leaving yourself open with the charge and shouldn't be able to automatically move away without any chance of retaliation.

This is also an entirely valid point and one that makes me think maybe I'll just drop the whole thing. If I get the boots I could run away after my charge normally and take my chances with AoOs.

But, I can think of one argument against just dropping the idea of a charging spring attack- and I'm not just bringing this up to be difficult, I think it might make just as much rational sense within the game...

Yes, charging is a "reckless" attack that leaves you more vulnerable; but the spring attack feat represents specific training on safely performing a hit and run; and it requires a magical effect (the boots), or psuedo-magical martial training (manuevers), to even be able to move again after a charge. With all that together a rational argument could also be made that such a highly and specifically trained individual, with supernatural augmentation to their attack method, should be able to combine everything to pull off a charging spring attack.

And, I should point out, you would only be 'automatically' avoiding retaliation from your target. Anyone else you pass by would still get AoOs that benefit from your charging AC penalty. Now granted, you'll have mobility working for you against those- but it's not a risk-free attack.