D&D (2024) Help with how many attacks

[WBruce]

On another related matter, I keep seeing people tell me to get Dual-wielder as if that would give me an extra attack. I don't see how. As far as I can tell Dual-wield would only let me replace the attack with the light weapon with one that doesn't contain the Two Handed label. Any clarification on this that I need to observe ?

 

[WBruce]

Ah! Thank you NotAYakk, that was pretty clear.

 

[Horwath]

Then you action surge. This lets you make an attack; however, even if it is with a light weapon, you cannot trigger another nick, as nick is restricted to once per turn.

wow, this makes TWF absolutely THE WORST style for fighters. bummer.

 

[pukunui]

On another related matter, I keep seeing people tell me to get Dual-wielder as if that would give me an extra attack. I don't see how. As far as I can tell Dual-wield would only let me replace the attack with the light weapon with one that doesn't contain the Two Handed label. Any clarification on this that I need to observe ?

IIRC Jeremy Crawford has indicated that Dual Wielder is meant to give you another attack in addition to the light weapon attack.

 

[billd91]

On another related matter, I keep seeing people tell me to get Dual-wielder as if that would give me an extra attack. I don't see how. As far as I can tell Dual-wield would only let me replace the attack with the light weapon with one that doesn't contain the Two Handed label. Any clarification on this that I need to observe ?

It wouldn't help your plan since your character would be using their bonus action for the flurry of blows (and get 2 attacks). But...

Dual wielder's text may be virtually the same as the light weapon property's with respect to gaining an extra attack as a bonus action (barring, of course, the lifting of the restriction on being another light weapon). But what happens if the nick property folds the extra attack due to the light weapon property into the main attack action? Does that free up the dual wielder feat's language to allow ANOTHER extra attack as a bonus action? Some people are reading it that way and I know posters here have alluded to game designer comments indicating that's intentional to increase a dual wielder's damage output. I have not seen clear citation confirmation of that.

 

[Charlaquin]

correct

+2 from action surge, as you make another Attack action and nick mastery gives option to use off-hand attack as a part of Attack action.

You can only make the Nick attack once per turn.

 

[pukunui]

@billd91: According to Treantmonk, Monty from Dungeon Dudes asked JC about it at Gencon last year.

Source:

 

[Shiroiken]

On another related matter, I keep seeing people tell me to get Dual-wielder as if that would give me an extra attack. I don't see how. As far as I can tell Dual-wield would only let me replace the attack with the light weapon with one that doesn't contain the Two Handed label. Any clarification on this that I need to observe ?

The Feat provides you with a bonus action you can use for an attack. If the character wasn't a monk, you could use your attack action for 2 attacks (action, plus nick) then make the Dual-Wielder Feat bonus action for a third attack. Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows take up the same spot in your case, making the feat pointless for you.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Is this the worst implementation of dual wielding yet in D&D? You'd think after 50 years they'd learn how to write clear rules on one of the most common melee power fantasies.

 

[NotAYakk]

So I'm tweaking the 5e damage curve a bit.

At the core is making weapon damage scale like cantrips. You deal 1[W] 1-4, 2[W] 5-10, 3[W] 11-16 and 4[W] 17-20.

Next, Extra Attack becomes "you can sacrifice 1[W] damage on your attack action to attack twice instead of once".

Fighter EA 2 and 3 just add an extra attack (!)

So a fighter goes:
L 1: [W]+Stat
L5(EA): 2[W]+2Stat or 2[W]+Stat (1 attack)
L11(EA2): 6[W]+3Stat (3 attacks) or 6[W]+2Stat (2 attacks)
L17(EA2): 9[W]+3Stat
L20(EA3): 12[W]+4Stat (4 attacks) or 12[W]+3Stat (3 attacks)
this is a non-trivial damage bump.

For TWF, I'm thinking of rewording it as:
"You deal your attribute damage on attacks triggered by the light property. The bonus action granted by the light property can gain extra attacks from your extra attack feature, but must always be with the same weapon".

L 1: 2d6(7)+2Stat
L5(EA): 4d6(14)+4Stat (4 attacks)
L11(EA2): 12d6(42)+6Stat (6 attacks)
L17(EA2): 18d6(63)+6Stat (6 attacks)
L20(EA3): 24d6(84)+8Stat (8 attacks)

We then tweak GWF to read:
"When you roll an odd number on a damage die with a melee weapon held in both hands, replace it with the max value of that damage die".
This increases average damage as follows:
1d4: 2.5->3.5 (+1)
1d6: 3.5->5 (+1.5)
1d8: 4.5->6.5 (+2)
1d10: 5.5->8 (+2.5)
1d12: 6.5->9.5 (+3)

So Greatswords deal 2d6B(9) and Greataxes do 1d12B(8.5). Assuming GS:

L 1: 2d6B(9)+Stat
L5(EA): 4d6B(18)+2Stat
L11(EA2): 12d6B(54)+3Stat
L17(EA2): 18d6B(81)+3Stat
L20(EA3): 24d6B(108)+4Stat

Subtracting 2W from 2H we get:
L1: 2-Stat (Stat ~2 is even)
L5: 4-2Stat (Stat ~2 is even)
L11: 12-3Stat (Stat~4 is even)
L17: 18-3Stat (Stat~6 is even)
L20: 24-4Stat (Stat~6 is even)

ie, both have quite similar damage curves. 2H wins on an action surge handily, and has a nastier OA.

Duelist falls behind in comparison:
L 1: 1d8+2 (6.5)+Stat (~20% less than 2H)
L5(EA): 2d8+4 (13)+2Stat (~20% less than 2H)
L11(EA2): 6d8+6 (33)+3Stat (~30% less than 2H)
L17(EA2): 9d8+6 (46.5)+3Stat (~35% less than 2H)
L20(EA3): 12d8+8 (62)+4Stat (~33% less than 2H)

I suppose you can consider this balanced against the increasing AC differential due to magical shields existing.