Flipguarder
First Post
Its motivation is irrelevant. This spell takes away from the fear that mid paragon pcs should have over meeting a tarrasque.
How do you handle Magic Circle in your game?
- Thread starter Stalker0
- Start date
Its motivation is irrelevant. This spell takes away from the fear that mid paragon pcs should have over meeting a tarrasque.
Props and scenery don't have motivation. PCs have that.
If the circle is drawn with something water soluble and the water is splashed on the circle by a creature type not affected by the circle it would. If the water is splashed on the circle by a creature affected by the circle it wouldn't, even if the circle is drawn with something that's normally water soluble.
DracoSuave
First Post
Well, a level 8 Ritual can undo the entirety of nasty effects of a Terrasque on any living creature from level 1 - 30 so, really, it's not as wildly incongruous as you might think.
Flipguarder
First Post
Congruousness does not denote reasonableness. Rituals in general can be extremely overpowered imo. They do things no power/feat/skill/item would ever be able to do, and they solve many encounters that would otherwise be impossible.
Rituals are not interesting, this is not cool story openers, they are just overpowered messes.
Man I hate rituals.
Rituals are not interesting, this is not cool story openers, they are just overpowered messes.
Man I hate rituals.
DracoSuave
First Post
Rituals can be potent, but they have the disadvantage of being infeasable. Something that cannot be used most of the time to end encounters isn't exactly a game-breaking thing. Magic Circle is a case in point. Sure, it's -great- for fortifying your defenses, but how often does that actually come up?
Normally the adventurers are kicking down doors and taking names--rituals that are powerful enough to win said encounter for them are generally to unwieldy to simply fire off before going into the encounter. And none of them, not one, can be reasonably used -in- an encounter, with -very- specific exceptions.
Let's face it, it's no different than when casters had them as spells in previous editions in terms of their 'encounter stopping power.' They just don't tend to have one round casting times any more.
I mean, yes, Magic Circle -can- stop a terrasque, and Raise Dead can undo the death the terrasque causes, but are either of these -feasible- in the typical adventuring encounter? Raise Dead -after- the fact, but you'd need a survivor, something that ain't happenin' at paragon level.
Normally the adventurers are kicking down doors and taking names--rituals that are powerful enough to win said encounter for them are generally to unwieldy to simply fire off before going into the encounter. And none of them, not one, can be reasonably used -in- an encounter, with -very- specific exceptions.
Let's face it, it's no different than when casters had them as spells in previous editions in terms of their 'encounter stopping power.' They just don't tend to have one round casting times any more.
I mean, yes, Magic Circle -can- stop a terrasque, and Raise Dead can undo the death the terrasque causes, but are either of these -feasible- in the typical adventuring encounter? Raise Dead -after- the fact, but you'd need a survivor, something that ain't happenin' at paragon level.
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Caudoviral
First Post
"Man I hate rituals."
Which is what it really all comes down to. You have expressed this opinion many times in this thread. I think everyone knows how you feel. You don't like magic circle because it doesn't jive with your feeling about how the tarresque works. It is a feeling not based on game mechanics or anything else solid, it is not even a majority opinion, and thus should not be used as an argument for why a given rule is bad.
Flipguarder
First Post
Give a level 5 character everything they could reasonably have to assist their arcana skill:
1/2 level =2
Attribute Max = 4
Trained = 5
Racial = 2
Background = 2
Familiar = 2
Feat = 3
Assistants = 4 (assuming 50% chance of success)
(is there a item appropriate to boost arcana/ritual skills?)
2+4+5+2+2+2+3+4 = 24
Heck even take the -5 to make it omit all creatures.
24 - 5 = 19
You can roll a 1 and still, without fail, protect yourself from enemies 5 levels above you.
Roll a 20 and all of your assistants succeed (24+4+20 = 48), You can defend yourself from any creature in the game.
Vecna, any of his minions, the entirety of the Monster manual can come to your location, wanting nothing more than you dead, and as long as you have everlasting provisions, you good. Since magic circle makes no mention of an exception due to deportation, I would assume that to teleport would mean passing the circle and therefore be inhibited.
This is from a level 5 character.
1/2 level =2
Attribute Max = 4
Trained = 5
Racial = 2
Background = 2
Familiar = 2
Feat = 3
Assistants = 4 (assuming 50% chance of success)
(is there a item appropriate to boost arcana/ritual skills?)
2+4+5+2+2+2+3+4 = 24
Heck even take the -5 to make it omit all creatures.
24 - 5 = 19
You can roll a 1 and still, without fail, protect yourself from enemies 5 levels above you.
Roll a 20 and all of your assistants succeed (24+4+20 = 48), You can defend yourself from any creature in the game.
Vecna, any of his minions, the entirety of the Monster manual can come to your location, wanting nothing more than you dead, and as long as you have everlasting provisions, you good. Since magic circle makes no mention of an exception due to deportation, I would assume that to teleport would mean passing the circle and therefore be inhibited.
This is from a level 5 character.
Flipguarder
First Post
So you are ok with the numbers I just posted?
It is mechanics I've explained over and over why it doesn't make sense. No other ability or action anyone else can do has this sort of power. Everyone seems just blind to it.
All a tarrasque does is makes it easier (no -5 to check) look at my math, If you are ok with a level 5 character protecting an area from any army a dm could muster then so be it. I find that a little overpowered.
DracoSuave
First Post
Well, for one, 100gp is not trivial for a level 5 character to spend on a single ritual, nor is it trivial for a level 5 character to just happen to have in material components on the fly.
For the second, that same character might be able to ward off his house or hut. Armies don't care. They just move along and deal with the -real- objective.
'We can't get into that farmhouse or on the farm!'
'Probably warded by a stupid wizard. Set up a perimeter of shooters for when he comes out to dust him with death. The rest of us, let's move on to the castle.'
Cause, see, the army can just walk around said obstacle. If the problem = <army> then solution != <a magic circle>
Now, if it were the Wall of Ash from the Dark Sun setting, -that- is a solution to an army.
But really tho, it's a problem that doesn't occur. Level 5 characters don't come up against terrasques unless their DM is a jerk, or they're supposed to find a non-combat solution, for example, setting up a ward or using a ritual to save the country or run away to find the Macguffin of Win Adventure.
The fact is, you've caught up on the level of the ritual as tho that were the important matter in determining what it'll realisticly be used against. The reality is, the character level is what is important. Any character can use any ritual, regardless of level, provided they have the scroll of it. But not any character will come up against terrasques or Orcus, or any other number of things this ritual'd be used against in a 'broken' manner. It's the same as epic level minions, so what if it has 1 hp, you won't fight it at paragon level so who cares if you can autokill it on a 20 for free XP.
If a level 30 character is using Magic Circle to save a village from Orcus, that's about right, and as it should be. It's better than wasting book space with 'Magic Circle' and 'Better Magic Circle' and 'Moar Magic Circle' and 'Magic Circle++ with Provitamin B-5' which are all the same effect.
Besides, if your adventure consists of you sitting in a Magic Circle with everlasting provisions forever, then I'd say good on you for doing that. Are you coming out ever? No? Great. So what's your next character, cause that one's not actually going on an adventure today.
For the second, that same character might be able to ward off his house or hut. Armies don't care. They just move along and deal with the -real- objective.
'We can't get into that farmhouse or on the farm!'
'Probably warded by a stupid wizard. Set up a perimeter of shooters for when he comes out to dust him with death. The rest of us, let's move on to the castle.'
Cause, see, the army can just walk around said obstacle. If the problem = <army> then solution != <a magic circle>
Now, if it were the Wall of Ash from the Dark Sun setting, -that- is a solution to an army.
But really tho, it's a problem that doesn't occur. Level 5 characters don't come up against terrasques unless their DM is a jerk, or they're supposed to find a non-combat solution, for example, setting up a ward or using a ritual to save the country or run away to find the Macguffin of Win Adventure.
The fact is, you've caught up on the level of the ritual as tho that were the important matter in determining what it'll realisticly be used against. The reality is, the character level is what is important. Any character can use any ritual, regardless of level, provided they have the scroll of it. But not any character will come up against terrasques or Orcus, or any other number of things this ritual'd be used against in a 'broken' manner. It's the same as epic level minions, so what if it has 1 hp, you won't fight it at paragon level so who cares if you can autokill it on a 20 for free XP.
If a level 30 character is using Magic Circle to save a village from Orcus, that's about right, and as it should be. It's better than wasting book space with 'Magic Circle' and 'Better Magic Circle' and 'Moar Magic Circle' and 'Magic Circle++ with Provitamin B-5' which are all the same effect.
Besides, if your adventure consists of you sitting in a Magic Circle with everlasting provisions forever, then I'd say good on you for doing that. Are you coming out ever? No? Great. So what's your next character, cause that one's not actually going on an adventure today.
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