Rules overload for players

[Vicar In A Tutu]

I had lots of fun playing 3E, I still play (and DM) it from time to time, even though our group has mostly switched to 4E. One thing I've noticed, is that the burden of handling large amounts of rules has - to a certain degree - moved from the DM to the players. This is because while 4E monsters are much easier to run than many monsters in 3E (especially outsiders with lots of spell-like abilities), 4E characters have become slightly more difficult to run than some of their counterparts in 3E (barring spellcasters), because in 4E all characters have powers. At 16th level, in the middle of the paragon tier, a 4E player character has:

* Race features.
* Class features.
* 14 different powers.
* 10 feats.
* Paragon path features.
* Loads of magical items, several with daily powers.
* Some characters might also have quite a few rituals.

At epic tier, this becomes completely insane, IMO. Now this might not be much compared to a 3E spellcaster (just consider the cleric which could choose between a vaste amount of spells), but the thing about 4E is that now every class can be draining to run at paragon and epic tier, unless the player is good at remembering (and juggling) all those different rules. I have played 4E sessions in which there was hardly a battle, and after those sessions i have not felt "tired" in the same way as when we played a few battles.

As much as I enjoy the game, my main issue with 4E (besides the long duration of combats and a nagging feeling that the magic items are rather bland) is the amount of stuff that players have to remember. New players, especially people new to RPGs in general, might feel very intimidated when they open the PHB and run into page after page of powers.

Do you agree / disagree?

 

[Ulrick]

I agree.

Even at lower levels, its cumbersome. I think one reason why combats last so long (aside from hp inflation) is because all players have to chose between all those powers and then keep track of them.

In many ways, a player has to study the PHB and become familiar with all those powers. And, actually, the DM has to study everything even more so just to make sure players are implementing them right.

But, of course, I'm sure somebody will counter these arguments with: "Well, that's why WotC's sells power cards!"

And then I'll counter with: "I remember when power cards were only for wizards and clerics. Not for everybody."

 

[Hjorimir]

I disagree, but only due to my own personal experiences. We have some new players in our group. We played 3.5e with them for about 6 months and they really struggled throughout that time. Playing 4e, they've come along much, much (MUCH) faster with understanding the mechanics of the system.

 

[Hjorimir]

You don't need power cards, you just need a well organized character sheet.

 

[Crothian]

Disagree as long as you are building up to that 16th level. It looks much worse just examing a high level character on its own then the reality of how the player has gotten there.

If I was given a16th level character to run I would be a little overwhelmed. But in a campaign were I've been playing for a year and a half up to 16th level then it really is going to be much less of an issue. Take time each level to learn the powers the character has so when new ones are gained you are not still learning the old.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

You don't need power cards, you just need a well organized character sheet.

Where did that Character Sheet come from?

 

[Hjorimir]

Where did that Character Sheet come from?

I made it.

 

[Jack99]

@OP

I disagree. If you have played your character for a bit, you get to know your powers and how they work, and it doesn't take long, certainly not at 16th level (which is incidently where my campaign is).

Compared to the prior edition, it's still much easier, even with the "many" powers, as the rules of the game are more streamlined and less convoluted.

IMO and IME of course.

You don't need power cards, you just need a well organized character sheet.

Cool sheet. I think having all powers on the same pages might have been better, but otherwise, its very nice.

 

[Hjorimir]

Cool sheet. I think having all powers on the same pages might have been better, but otherwise, its very nice.

Yeah, I played around with that, but (in the end) I found I preferred it this way. Easy enough to push them to the second page though. Thanks for the nice comment.

 

[Cadfan]

I've been running 4e with a bunch of new players (new to rpgs, not just 4e). We haven't had significant difficulty remembering abilities.

I've done three things to make sure this has worked out.

1. We started at level 1. I can't emphasize this enough. If you start at level 1 and level at the recommended rate, you will see a major reduction in problems. A level 1 character has generally six powers: two at wills, one encounter, one daily, and one power from their race. They usually also have one major class feature. This is manageable, and these powers and features remain present until at least level 13, the first time you'll definitely want to trade something out. If you've leveled at the recommended rate, that's 130 encounters or so. During this time you WILL learn.

2. I keep items with powers rare.

3. I write out the math on their character sheets and use cards for abilities with the math already done on them.

Now we're only at level 5, so who knows how well this will work out over time. But by the point where my players hit paragon tier, they'll have been playing D&D for a full year or so. So I figure they'll catch up in time.

I'd never, ever start a low experience player at a higher level if I could avoid it.