D&D 3E/3.5 D&D 3.5 Resurgence or Die???

[Odhanan]

If all the earlier versions of D&D (and the Old School Renaissance) are any clue, you'll notice that all versions of D&D are still actually played in some form or another. Now, none of them originally benefited from the OGL, but they now do via the retroclones we've seen emerge online, on POD and now in brick and mortar stores.

Given that the OGL serves Third Ed first and foremost, I am absolutely certain that the game will survive. What we are still seeing now is in large part reactive to the publication of 4e. When the passions die down and people finally move on, we'll see some players getting back to Third Edition and rediscovering what made it such a boon to gaming in the first place.

I'm not worried in this regard.

 

[MichaelK]

I do sometimes look at my earliest gaming books, (in a sorrowful state of disrepair) and worry about my 3.x books. Still my oldest books have served me well for 15 years, so there's some hope.

I have been considering buying some spares just in case though.

Printing out the SRD is a good idea as well, if only to spare the books from constant reference.

 

[Eridanis]

When the passions die down and people finally move on, we'll see some players getting back to Third Edition and rediscovering what made it such a boon to gaming in the first place.

I think Paizo is in great shape to start pushing the pendulum back. 4E has had its year for people to try the new game, and now Pathfinder will come along this summer just in time to stoke the fires of those who want to go back to 3E. Circumstances have created some good timing - but sometimes you create your own luck.

Heck, every game has its group of devotees. Folks will play the game they like; the more, the merrier. I submit there are more important things in life than stressing about whether one's preferred game will survive; it will, no matter what.

On a related note, I'm flabbergasted at how many 3.x monster books I own. I've been pulling them out lately to start percolating ideas for a PRPG game, and it's like drinking from a fire hose! MM1, 2, and 3; Liber Bestarius; Penumbra Fantasy Bestiary; Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary; and that doesn't even touch the pdfs I have from Malhavoc*. Talk about a niche for everything - it takes a fantasy world to hold a few dozen of these fantastic beasts in anything approaching something realistic.

* And a quick trip to my bookshelf reminds me I forgot the Tomes of Horrors and the Monsternomicons. An embarrasment of riches.

 

[Vascant]

On a related note, I'm flabbergasted at how many 3.x monster books I own. I've been pulling them out lately to start percolating ideas for a PRPG game, and it's like drinking from a fire hose! MM1, 2, and 3; Liber Bestarius; Penumbra Fantasy Bestiary; Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary; and that doesn't even touch the pdfs I have from Malhavoc*. Talk about a niche for everything - it takes a fantasy world to hold a few dozen of these fantastic beasts in anything approaching something realistic.

* And a quick trip to my bookshelf reminds me I forgot the Tomes of Horrors and the Monsternomicons. An embarrasment of riches.

I did this not to long ago and realized I probably have only used 1% of the monsters, so much more game to play

 

[freyar]

Hey, don't forget the EN World Creature Catalog! Our goal is to convert every official D&D monster ever (or at least make sure that someone has converted them all). When we're done, we might upgrade to PFRPG, though not all the 3.0 ones are 3.5 yet.

 

[Sigurd]

One word - Pathfinder

Paizo has proved they can produce top quality stuff. They took Dragon and Dungeon to a new level IMHO.

They've been unambiguous in their support for the OGL.

They've given out beta stuff for the main rules.


I honestly think they deserve lots of support esp from the web. If you want the benefit of a living publishing company for 3.x the conversations end in Paizo as well as any PDF companies that stay the course.

There are going to be changes and mistakes along the way - don't cut and run at the first blemish. These are the people who did a good job and wanted to continue your magazines. Pathfinder is the future for my gaming table. I've told my players.

Sigurd

 

[dingle]

Hey, don't forget the EN World Creature Catalog! Our goal is to convert every official D&D monster ever (or at least make sure that someone has converted them all). When we're done, we might upgrade to PFRPG, though not all the 3.0 ones are 3.5 yet.

What would be the copyright implications of using AD&D monsters in a 3.5 monster generator, does any one know?
Reading through some of them bought back some fond memories.

 

[aboyd]

I believe copyright laws specifically disclaim protection of the numbers/math/mechanical systems in a game. All that can be protected is the "creative writing" stuff, such as the flavor text, descriptions, and so on. This would be ideal for a monster tool -- all you want is the numbers. So I'd say that's legally OK. However, that practically means nothing because WotC can sue you even if they know they'll lose. You'll still blow thousands on your defense.

All of this is USA thinking, by the way. I believe you live in the UK...? So I have no idea what happens there. I've heard you guys make loser pay for all legal fees on both sides, which would definitely deter WotC from filing suit just to bug you. But maybe your location has other laws that protect the numbers in a monster listing?

 

[freyar]

What would be the copyright implications of using AD&D monsters in a 3.5 monster generator, does any one know?
Reading through some of them bought back some fond memories.

That's a tricky question. Unfortunately, I wasn't around when a lot of this was worked out, and I'm no kind of lawyer, so keep that in mind.

The way I understand it, the CC and Necromancer Games (for the Tome of Horrors) had an agreement or agreements with WotC (again, the Necro ToH designers and the CC crowd at the time were largely the same crew, so this isn't clear to me) to convert old monsters. I don't know if this was a formal contract per se or more of a "gentleman's agreement"/verbal contract. I also don't quite know the terms of that agreement; the monsters in the ToH are OGC and usable by anyone under the terms of the OGL. That should also be true of the CC, at least if the same agreement with WotC is in force and assuming the CC's section 15 is correct. So anyway, I guess you can use anything in the ToH under the terms of the OGL.

It's also possible that no special agreement with WotC was needed. One thing we've heard a lot recently is that game mechanics can't be copyrighted in the US, and the 3.X game rules used in these conversions are OGC anyway (for ex, the CC uses only mechanics from the SRD and stuff we make up ourselves). But some of the monster names could be copyrighted (we rewrite fluff, so that should be ok), I don't know.

Also, back in the early days of 3e, WotC released "conversion guidelines" aimed at protecting their trademarks and copyrights on adventures. This required use of the d20 STL, which has now been revoked (the way I read it). But it's not clear that this applies to monsters if you don't use the copyrighted text; the names would appear to be the big issue. I have done conversions of some older edition monsters and not heard peep from WotC (I suspect I'm way under their radar), as have other fansites (some of my work is on Candlekeep along with others). ENWorld member Garnfellow has conversions from White Dwarf up, but he doesn't think they can be made OGC. So it's murky. And the CC won't offiicially post anything from non-WotC sources, like Mayfair Role-Aids, even though we're doing the conversions.

So, all in all, it's iffy. The only thing I can say for sure is that ToH monsters are OGC -- even Paizo has used them.

 

[Sigurd]

Dingle - be aware that you have to consider at least two situations - License and Copyright.


As I understand it, I'm not a lawyer, Licenses are designed to move potential publishers away from simple copyright rules into a much more defined relationship. The various gaming licenses help the licensees by defining a working relationship to use some 'intellectual property'. They also help the license giver by moving any disputes away from simple copyright law and into the framework of the license. I believe the GSL has (had?) a clause that legal disputes would all be paid for by the licensee for example.

The limitations on your publishing, previously described by copyright law, are changed forever when you agree to publish under the OGL or most any other license. The license becomes the rule because you have chosen to be bound by it. It is a fools game for a licensee to spout rules of copyright unless you can somehow make the license illegal or non binding.

I do not know what freedoms you might gain if you relied only on copyright. Nobody is eager to pay the court costs to find out.


S