Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Sneak Peeks (Old thread)

[James Jacobs]

One more thing

Bringing monsters more in line with their CR (as was done with the allip) is also a way that the PFRPG is addressing concerns about the 15 minute adventuring day.

A CR 3 encounter shouldn't leave a group of 3rd level characters ruined. It should be one of many encounters they can handle in a day. As a result, what might look at first like a complete nerf to a monster in fact means that the PCs will be able to handle more level-appropriate encounters in a day, and thus won't be forced to run home and rest after each room in the dungeon.

 

[Windjammer]

Bringing monsters more in line with their CR (as was done with the allip) is also a way that the PFRPG is addressing concerns about the 15 minute adventuring day.

And that's a good thing to do. No doubt the 4E rust monster (or the one we saw in the 2006 make over by WotC) is a good thing too - for people who want to avoid the 15 minute adventuring day at all costs.

But it's controversial now as much as it was in 2006 whether this means that all monsters in the game need to conform to one and the same model. Basically, there are 300+ critters in D&D, discounting any follow-up MM IIs, IIIs, or what have you. Among these, yes there are some monsters which will seriously challenge the party to come up with new strategies. If one of that strategy is "he who flees today, lives to flee another day", so be it. If you as a DM, or your players, have serious issues with such a scenario, just avoid the two dozens of monsters in the game which bring up the issue in the first place. It's not like there's nothing ELSE in this game.

I've never begrudged people who disliked the old rust monster for their gaming preferences. What I did begrudge was the need to enforce their preferences, already served by 280 critters in the game, on the remaining 20. That seemed incredibly selfish to me. See, what I don't get is their begrudging those people who like variety among the monsters so as to satisfy and encourage a variety of DMing skills and preferences - not to mention the players'. So the only setup within which I honest-to-heart can appreciate (as opposed to: begrudge) ruthlessly homogenized monster design is Organized Play - a format which, by definition, can't make many concessions to a variety in DMing preferences and player skills. Organized Play needs to reinforce standards of refereeing, and standardized design is a primary method to achieve that.

A CR 3 encounter shouldn't leave a group of 3rd level characters ruined. It should be one of many encounters they can handle in a day.

See above. If my players were hired by a cleric to clear out a haunted tomb, and two of them suffered woefully at the claws err touch attacks of an allip, the party could, upon clearing the tomb, return to the cleric and ask him for aid over and above the original call. Is that hopeless? Not necessarily. Might the cleric decline to oblige, laughing instead at the characters' inaptitude for not finishing the allip with ranged attacks first? Possibly.

But there you have it. Resource replenishment outside the box of "oooh, if my party meets monster X, then they MIGHT risk going beneath their expected gold per level ratio, in which case they can't afford the magic items they deserve to buy because (obviously) I, the DM, can't do anything about this by handling these issues in-game" is a good thing; I don't get DMs, or players, who are nervous about it. And I wasn't even particularly imaginative with my example of appealing to the cleric. Basically, finding ways to alleviate a sudden shortage in resources is up to the players' imagination, not the DMs. For some, that's a beautiful ingredient to the game which will sorely be missed, so I don't understand why designers wish to pre-empt it at every turn.

As a result, what might look at first like a complete nerf to a monster in fact means that the PCs will be able to handle more level-appropriate encounters in a day, and thus won't be forced to run home and rest after each room in the dungeon.

Yes, that's exactly what the side bar says in the 4E MM 2 about the new rust monster. Not a single monster in the game should force the party to leave the dungeon. I don't get it why. There's a whole world there outside the dungeon. While 4E, as a game, doesn't bother much with that world, I would have never expected Pathfinder RPG to enter that camp too.

Just to repeat myself like the broken record I am. There's only one set up where a game session goes irreparably wrong once players are forced to leave the dungeon, and that's the 4 hour convention game set up in Organized Play. And nope, I'm not making this up. Read here why the former Allip was such a pain in the back for convention play. To quote:

First up is the allip, a real F**k-you monster back in 3.5. A CR 3 incorporeal monster that inflicts Wisdom drain on a touch attack, no save? A DM had to be a sadist to pit this baby against a level-appropriate group – in fact, back in the Living Greyhawk days, the title of Real Man was bestowed upon those characters who’d started out in ESA3-08 Prisoners of the Calling Mines, a first-level module that started the characters unarmed and unequipped as prisoners in a deep mine, and featured an allip end boss. That module claimed a great many characters. Now, the allip is a much more bearable opponent, inflicting only Wisdom damage with its touch of insanity. A critical hit no longer doubles it, either, but does one additional point of Wisdom drain. Still dangerous and nobody you want to mess with, but no longer a floating, babbling TPK waiting to happen (okay, technically, an allip cannot actually kill anyone – a character with his Wisdom reduced to 0 is only comatose, not dead, but a comatose character in a dungeon isn’t going to end well).

And, to top it off:

The caryatid column is a support structure in the shape of a sword-wielding woman with an entablature on her head. It’s got a nasty habit of sundering weapons, too, which is rather more bearable in Pathfinder RPG, where a sundered weapon isn’t irrevocably destroyed.

That basically closes my case. As I wrote elsewhere, the 4E rust monster is a codification of the RPGA's former ruling for sundered weapons where you get your item back at the end of the session. Sundering as written was a no-go for the RPGA, so they "fixed" it. Ever wanted to know why sundering in 4E is gone? Well there. Organized Play. Now, I hadn't followed up PFRPG's handling of the issue, but I'm glad to be informed about this now.

 

[dm4hire]

Druid preview is up at Paizo's Blog.

Lini
Female gnome druid 8
N Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +15
DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 14, flat-footed 17 (+4 armor, +2 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 size)
hp 71 (8d8+32)
Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +10; +2 vs. illusion
Defensive Abilities defensive training
OFFENSE
Speed 20 ft.
Melee mwk sickle +7 (1d4–1)
Ranged +1 sling +9 (1d3+1)
Special Attacks wild shape 4/day
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 8th):
1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, speak with animals
Druid Spells Prepared (CL 8th):
4th—cure serious wounds, flame strike (DC 18), freedom of movement
3rd—call lightning (DC 17), dominate animal (DC 17), greater magic fang, poison (DC 17)
2nd—barkskin, bull's strength, flame blade, lesser restoration
1st—cure light wounds (2), entangle (DC 15), longstrider, obscuring mist
0—create water, detect magic, know direction, stabilize
STATISTICS
Str 8, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 16
Base Atk +6; CMB +4; CMD 17
Feats Combat Casting, Improved Initiative, Natural Spell, Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Acrobatics +8, Fly +10, Handle Animal +10, Knowledge (nature) +8, Perception +15, Survival +13
Languages Common, Gnome
SQ nature bond (snow leopard animal companion), nature sense, resist nature's lure, trackless step, wild empathy +11, woodland stride
Combat Gear wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear mwk sickle, +1 sling, +2 leather armor, amulet of mighty fists +1, boots of elvenkind, druid vestments, elemental gem (air), headband of inspired wisdom +2, ring of deflection +2

Droogami
Male snow leopard
N Medium animal
Init +6; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +8
DEFENSE
AC 22, touch 17, flat-footed 15 (+6 Dex, +1 dodge, +5 natural)
hp 45 (7d8+14)
Fort +7, Ref +11, Will +3; +4 vs. enchantment
Defensive Abilities evasion
OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft.
Melee bite +9 (1d6+4 plus trip), 2 claws +9 (1d3+4)
STATISTICS
Str 18, Dex 22, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +5; CMB +9; CMD 26
Feats Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Stealthy
Skills Acrobatics +10, Climb +9, Perception +8, Stealth +13
SQ devotion, link, share spells, sprint

 

[Hunter In Darkness]

I am very glad to see the changes stayed

 

[jensun]

I am not seeing any Wildshape on that list of class abilities. has it been removed?

Also, an Amulet of Mighty Fists when you can cast Greater Magic Fang!

 

[dm4hire]

It's under special attacks.

If you follow the link and read the blog you'll see that the amulet can be used in wild shape form.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Well I hope I don't start a huge argument but a lot of the changes I have seen so far have a very 4E in feel to me, such as the simplified (although not as simple) companion progression.

 

[malkav666]

Well I hope I don't start a huge argument but a lot of the changes I have seen so far have a very 4E in feel to me, such as the simplified (although not as simple) companion progression.

What else specifically (aside from animal companions) about the PFRPG previews gives you the 4e vibe?

I personally am not getting that same "4e in feel" feeling when thinking about how animal companions are being handled. 4e companions seem to me like they are just a die type extension of the controller (of the animal), and I also believe those beast companions in 4e get HP at a static rate (no hit dice), and have their beast damage bumped up "at tier" like all other 4e damage systems.

The PF animal companion still seems to sing of 3.x mechanics to me. It looks like they may have added a table to give the player more control over how the animal companion advances as the caster gains levels, but it looks like to me its still a 3.x stat block, with all the usual suspects present. I am also not seeing any "animal attack" powers which leads me to think that directing the animal is still handled through the 3.x system as opposed to "at will" abilities to make the animal do "x".

While I am certainly not calling your opinion "wrong", as it is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, I am trying to figure out what about the PFRPG animal companions seems "4e in feel" to you, and offering my own views on the subject(and those should be read as my own opinions as opposed to a decleration of fact). While I have been following the PFRPG rules very closely for some time, my group put down 4e about 3 months ago, so it has been a while since I sat down with the rules. SO maybe I am just missing something key in the 4e side of things that would draw you to that observation. Because I am just not seeing it from what I have seen from the PF side of things.

love,

malkav

 

[Starbuck_II]

Items no longer stop functioning in wild shape.

Paizo can't read its own writing though:

Just like before, you can maintain a form indefinitely once it is assumed

Um, no 1 hr/level.

 

[WayneLigon]

Yes, that's exactly what the side bar says in the 4E MM 2 about the new rust monster. Not a single monster in the game should force the party to leave the dungeon....

That basically closes my case. As I wrote elsewhere, the 4E rust monster is a codification of the RPGA's former ruling for sundered weapons where you get your item back at the end of the session. Sundering as written was a no-go for the RPGA, so they "fixed" it. Ever wanted to know why sundering in 4E is gone? Well there. Organized Play. Now, I hadn't followed up PFRPG's handling of the issue, but I'm glad to be informed about this now.

I'm thinking that what the bolded sentence really means is 'this really cool adventure should not come to a screaching halt' rather than literally meaning 'a dungeon'. What goes doubly for organized play also has a large implication for regular tabletop play.

When you're in a four hour tournament, you don't want a bad encounter to bring everything to a standstill. Having the adventure come to a total standstill is also a bad thing at the tabletop and contributes to that '20 minutes of fun packed into four hours' meme.

While some of it is acceptable to a long-standing group, stuff like that is going to be particularly off-putting to people new to the game. I wonder how many newbies have left the game never to return because this rousing adventure they were promised suddenly turned into a boring trod back to town because the GM used a creature that suddenly rendered them totally ineffectual and probably unable to rectify the situation? How many thought 'I spent four hours walking around trying to find a way to buy new chainmail, when we were suppossed to go on this cool adventure thing? Screw this.'

The original Rust Monster also has a whole class of buddies (The disenchanter, the goldbug, the bookworm, many others) that exist for the sole purpose of screwing the players. Honestly, that's it's only function and the love this creature has inspired just baffles me. It's a badly-designed monster, period.

I think it's time to get rid of the childishly adversarial monsters that only exist to screw with people so we can get back to some serious adventuring.