Well, of course he didn't stay dead.

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Like anything else, it's all in the execution. You make some arbitrary exceptions for Green Lantern and Flash, but in actuality the former torch-passing was far more divisive than the latter because of the difference in how it was handled.

Well, I disagree. The torch-passing in GL has not been the problem (it's happened more times than any other high profile character). It was specific decisions made about Hal Jordan that flipped people out all over the joint.

I agree that a periodic reboot is what comics really need. Every couple of generations, do what DC did with the transition from the golden to silver age. Again, the fans will accept or reject based on quality.

And if some percentage of the audience does reject.... they can pick it up again next switch.... But that won't happen because ultimately the suits are too risk averse and all industries that rely on paper are WAY too cost restrictive right now.

Maybe once we finally get paperless right we'll see real innovation.

I don't think it's unreasonable that fans feel their buy-in is an important element.

It is entirely unreasonable when they deliberately use it as a bludgeon to keep new people out of the hobby and to short circuit actual growth in the kinds of storytelling that can be done.

 

[Felon]

Well, I disagree. The torch-passing in GL has not been the problem (it's happened more times than any other high profile character). It was specific decisions made about Hal Jordan that flipped people out all over the joint.

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing about. If you say that it was a specific decision that fans disliked, then you are indeed saying it was the details of the execution, not the basic concept of torch-passing, that was displeasing. And that was my premise.

And if some percentage of the audience does reject.... they can pick it up again next switch.... But that won't happen because ultimately the suits are too risk averse and all industries that rely on paper are WAY too cost restrictive right now.

Maybe once we finally get paperless right we'll see real innovation.

Well, the upshot of the superhero movie craze is that every character is a valuable IP. The only reason to kill them is to bring them back on a high note--kinda like the McRib sandwich's "limited time" availability.

It is entirely unreasonable when they deliberately use it as a bludgeon to keep new people out of the hobby and to short circuit actual growth in the kinds of storytelling that can be done.

Part of the weird nature of the cult-of-personality attitude in comics is the idea put forth by folks like Warren Ellis and Mark Millar that the fans should learn to check themselves and accept the hand they're dealt--after all, rockstar comic writers write what they want to write, not what others want to read. If I think it's messed up in countless ways to have Spider-Man and Wolverine in the Avengers, or I don't like seeing a bone-breaking brutal Ultimate Cap or a cannibalistic Ultimate Hulk, well I should just keep my objections to myself. I happen to think that's nuts. If I hate what's being done with the New Ultimate Mighty Avengers, it really doesn't gladden me that new fans are being attracted. I want the New Ultimate Mighty Avengers to fail.

Furthermore, I'll posit that a price tag of $5 for 32 flimsy pages of padded stories that play out over excessively long arcs for the benefit of trade-paperbacking has a lot more to do with the dwindling number of readers than the grousing of detractors like myself.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, the upshot of the superhero movie craze is that every character is a valuable IP. The only reason to kill them is to bring them back on a high note--kinda like the McRib sandwich's "limited time" availability.

I, for one, would welcome the McRib being trapped in an iceberg for 50 years...

Side note: I was actually in one of the original McRib taste tests back in the 1970s. For the record, I hated it.

Ditto Magic Shell ice-cream topping.

Years later, both were still around...but at least the latter had improved.

 

[WayneLigon]

Sure, he's a "boyscout"...but he was a soldier before he was Cap. I'm sure he was involved in more than one fatal shooting.

His entire career in the Army is as Cap; he's picked for the experiment because he's so totally unfit to be a soldier that he's been rejected.

He and Bucky kill people many, many, many times over in the war years. You wanna see mass carnage? Tie up Bucky or threaten Cap's life; either one gets you a death sentence from Bucky. One time he thinks Cap has been killed, so he sends an entire U-Boat to the bottom of the ocean.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I'm not sure what you're disagreeing about. If you say that it was a specific decision that fans disliked, then you are indeed saying it was the details of the execution, not the basic concept of torch-passing, that was displeasing. And that was my premise.

Let me clarify:
It was specific decisions made about Hal Jordan decades after he passed the torch the first time that flipped people out all over the joint.

My only point was that people can accept Green Lanterns who are not Hal Jordan and any number of Flash characters, but they seem unable to accept Batmans who are not Bruce Wayne as anything other than a temporary situation.

Well, the upshot of the superhero movie craze is that every character is a valuable IP. The only reason to kill them is to bring them back on a high note--kinda like the McRib sandwich's "limited time" availability.

Actually... no. The movies themselves are the meaningful revenue stream, AFAICT. The comic doesn't need to be there at all anymore, since the only characters who get movies are the ones who have been pop culture icons for a LONG time. And I think it's telling that the movies only succeed when they start from scratch. Even continuing off previous movies as Superman Returns did is a big mistake.

Furthermore, I'll posit that a price tag of $5 for 32 flimsy pages of padded stories that play out over excessively long arcs for the benefit of trade-paperbacking has a lot more to do with the dwindling number of readers than the grousing of detractors like myself.

True. But the legitimately consumer unfriendly atmosphere in comic book shops and new customer unfriendly nature of the stories don't help.

The nice thing about being a modern myth is that you're very accessible. Everyone gets the idea right off the bat. Deliberately keeping those characters stuck in a soap operatic level of nonsensical plots for 20, 30, or 50 years eliminates that benefit handily.

That's why the movies succeed while the comics continue to fail.

 

[Doug McCrae]

My only point was that people can accept Green Lanterns who are not Hal Jordan and any number of Flash characters, but they seem unable to accept Batmans who are not Bruce Wayne as anything other than a temporary situation.

That's partly because Hal Jordan and Barry Allen weren't the originals, though they are the most iconic 'torchbearers'. So it had become clearly established early on that for Green Lantern and Flash, the torch can be passed. It's different for Batman and Superman, there was no GA->SA identity switch.

The other reason is, as you say, that GL and Flash are both second stringers.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I want the New Ultimate Mighty Avengers to fail.

I've really been enjoying both Bendis's New and Mighty Avengers (apart from the bit where Tigra got beaten up) and much of Millar's Ultimates though he still doesn't know how to end a story. Mostly I read comics for the writer, not the character.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

His entire career in the Army is as Cap; he's picked for the experiment because he's so totally unfit to be a soldier that he's been rejected.

He and Bucky kill people many, many, many times over in the war years. You wanna see mass carnage? Tie up Bucky or threaten Cap's life; either one gets you a death sentence from Bucky. One time he thinks Cap has been killed, so he sends an entire U-Boat to the bottom of the ocean.

Sir, you are correct on both accounts- I had forgotten that Steve Rodgers and the rest of the Super Soldier Serum test group were chosen from the 4F bunch! (I really did know better, but my memory kerfluffled.)

And yeah- you read some of that early silver age stuff- especially when he's actively involved fighting Nazis- the body count can get impressive.

 

[Darth Shoju]

Sir, you are correct on both accounts- I had forgotten that Steve Rodgers and the rest of the Super Soldier Serum test group were chosen from the 4F bunch! (I really did know better, but my memory kerfluffled.)

And yeah- you read some of that early silver age stuff- especially when he's actively involved fighting Nazis- the body count can get impressive.

Not sure if it counts, but he also decapitated Baron Blood with his shield.