Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Sneak Peeks (Old thread)

[AllisterH]

In that quote by Erik, I think there's a fundamental difference between that creature and an Ailip.

In an encounter, there is absolutely no difference between an PF Ailip and a 3.5 Ailip. Damage and Drain will have the same effect on the battle.

It's the cleanup that's the issue a la the classic rustmonster. No chance to recover without the DM being "hands-on" in like providing a handy cleric waiting in the next room.

 

[malkav666]

I don't have my copy of Dungeon 124 in my current flat either, so for all I know it may be more than CR 1. Not that it even makes that much of a difference when a CR 1 spider swarm (MM, page 237-238), though presumably causing less damage than the acid beetles (still 1d6, plus 1d3 Strength damage owing to poison), still gains the very swarm traits which close off standard party behaviour as a viable strategy. That's what Erik is talking about. Remind the players they don't need to swing swords when they can pick up torches. It's apparently too much to ask for. So:

Nice try turning this round but, sorry, just flatly unpersuasive.

Aye, just as you are not persuaded, your argument is not really floating with me either. I just don't think that changing one monsters damage from drain to damage has that big of an effect on the game. If your DM still wants to use drain abilities on her level 3 party she can. Nothing prevents this. The monsters CR now just reflects what all of the other CR 3 monsters reflect: That this is an average challenge for a group of level three characters.

It is not the monsters themselves that force a party to think, it is the design of the encounter in its entirety. Its not poorly tuned monsters that have abilities that are to good for their CR that make encounters truly challenging. It is clever design and placement of the encounter that really make the difference.

But anyways, this is a matter of opinion, and really nothing more. You have failed to convince me that it was a poor decision to change the ability drain to damage, just as I have failed to convince you otherwise. So without further thread derailment I think I will just agree to disagree.

love,

malkav

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Good christ, the monster is still just as deadly, only now the players don't feel like losers through the rest of the dungeon because they don't have a cleric twice their level hovering around them. The monster is still just as deadly. How has this conversation gone on for more then two posts?!


THE MONSTER IS STILL JUST AS DEADLY.

 

[Krensky]

How has this conversation gone on for more then two posts?!

Because this is the internet.

Really, I don't get it either.

 

[AllisterH]

Good christ, the monster is still just as deadly, only now the players don't feel like losers through the rest of the dungeon because they don't have a cleric twice their level hovering around them. The monster is still just as deadly. How has this conversation gone on for more then two posts?!


THE MONSTER IS STILL JUST AS DEADLY.

Heh, now I'm going to have to defend Windjammer's position

Windjammer et al I think acknowledge this fact. They just take issue with the cleanup phase which is where the PF differs.

(Of course, I'm ignoring the fact that the PF Ailip will also affect the next encounter since without a cleric, wisdom damage takes days to recover via the healing rules if I'm reading PF correctly. Then again, this gets ignored similarly by those who trash the 4e rustmonster for not being old school since a dead 4e rustmonster spits out residiium and the enchant magic item ritual takes a whole hour OR the DM could simply have had the monster do an eat and dash)....

Yeah...I got nothing...this is a non-issue IMO.

 

[Windjammer]

"Wisdom 0 means that a creature is lapsed into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless." (Rules Compendium, p.6)

Given this, "deadly" strikes me as an odd choice of words here, slightly aggravated by the use of large font and bolded capitals.

Say, how about someone running the numbers on how many successful touch attacks an allip requires to TPK a 3rd level party of four characters, on the presumpion the allip drains them into helpless condition and then coup-de-graces them one after another?

It basically requires four of these on a Wis 10 character. So we're now talking about a scenario where professional designers need to prevent scenarios where a player controlling a frontline fighter doesn't get the point after three successive Wis draining attacks in a row that maybe, just maybe, a switch in strategy is in order.

Deadly!

 

[bouncyhead]

Well, I was quite enjoying that slightly rambling conversation, which I think was really about the philosophy of encounter design, CR, player expectations and, you know, stuff, and not really about the Allip at all. I didn't realise we were being overseen by the scary font-master

 

[Eridanis]

I didn't realise we were being overseen by the scary font-master

No, but you are being overseen by a mod.

This has gotten on the verge of personal; cut it out, to the half-dozen of you involved. I suggest you fork the [ages-old] conversation about CR functionality to another thread, and return this thread to a calmer tone of voice.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Now, I'm honestly a bit amazed about this bit from Mr. Mona's quote:

While this assumption appears to be widespread it's not something that is a natural consequence of the CR system as presented in 3E.

Anyone's who's read the DMG should have noticed that it is recommended that 5% of all encounters should be of a CR 5+ higher than the effective party level. It also recommends to include a significant percentage of encounters with CR 2-4 higher than the EPL.
And finally it recommends to include another similarly high percentage of encounters with CR 2-4 higher than the EPL that become significantly easier if the players think on their feet.

So, this assumed 'social contract' was not something that was initially intended by the authors of 3E.

I've heard similar things regarding the 4E XP budget system. It seems a common misconception. I suppose it needs to be adressed somewhere, to explain people that they are tools go determine the difficulty of a challenge - what difficulty you desire is still up to you (and that can be the difficulty of "it's as difficult as it makes sense in the campaign world" just as well "the difficulty that fits the characters most")

 

[Mikaze]

So how about that water naga? Coolest naga I've seen in a while. Wonder how its poison rates among the revised toxins in terms of lethality, considering how poison and disease are apparently getting boosted.