Dealing with a DM who takes things too literally

[Barastrondo]

If someone says "I don't like playing 4e because the PCs are superheroes" the first thing trotted out is that the game doesn't have to be played like that -- you can simply restrict powers on the basis of makes sense.

Yet, as soon as one hears of a DM restricting powers on the basis of what makes sense, he is a poor DM, lazy, and wrong. Or simply doesn't know the rules.

It's not really a Catch-22. Rather, it's that the DM isn't giving the player a shot to play 4e not like a superhero.

Yes, a directly literal read of the "push" mechanic as "you shove someone with pure physical strength alone" makes such a power come across as superheroic. But it doesn't have to be. The player's looking for a shot at describing the power use in a "not superheroic" fashion, by describing it in terms of a deft maneuver or a strike at a vulnerable part that forces the giant to take an involuntary step back. But because the DM takes the word "push" literally, he's assuming that the only way to use the power is in "superheroic" fashion.

And it doesn't have to be that way at all. Directly banning power use based on an overly literal intepretation of game effects isn't really giving the game, and its capability for narrative reskinning, a fair shake.

 

[Nebten]

What do the other players feel about this? I'm sure you are not alone in how you feel things are being handled. I would recommend talking with the other players and how they feel about what is being done. If the feeling is mutual, then you all should discuss these points with the DM. That way you don't have to go at it alone.

 

[wayne62682]

The other players are newbies and casual players so they don't really understand the implications.

 

[MercuryCrash]

Push This!

Yay for fantasy vs. logic. So what I'm seeing is a word, describing a mechanic, that is part of an ability, used by a capable character, played in what I am hoping is still considered a role playing game, that failed to work by definition. Role play the push, what happened? Backlash from the strike, off hand/shield get too close to for comfort, step on his toe. This may help him see what's going on in the fight.

The mechanics are in place to enhance the game play. Logically an armored up mini me flailing sharp objects may have me take a step back to re adjust, I'd rather take him out withouth the shin splints.

If there are other obsticles that may damage the enemy like a cliff or wall of fire I believe there is a saving throw for them to avoid, either way the amount of damage done would come into play for me, I'm not sure I would let a 300 hp brute go flailing off a cliff when just taking its first 4 hps of damage, though its not impossible.

If the trip to the tavern doesn't work out try serving him a dirty martini with a couple bleu cheese stuffed olives as he's drawing out the encounter. Otherwise, take over the dm spot and run it how you want to.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Well, it doesn't tell you how you push the target.

The blow is deep but not as deep as it would have been had the target not moved away!

You make your blow and prepare a follow up attack but the creature moves back.

There are a few ways to explain how the powers actually work.

Ironically, on RPG.net, I'm arguing that no power sources are 'not magical' in that they almost all have similiar abilities and that martial is no different. To me, the effect is what counts, not what 'power source' it comes from.

I'm wondering how to deal with my DM. The issue I have with him is that he often takes the wording in conditions or effects far too literally and then raises issues that don't exist by the RAW.

I'll give you an example: My Dragonborn Fighter/Iron Vanguard has the power Frontline Surge which lets me push an enemy back a square and shift into that space. My DM reads the word "push" as meaning I physically push the target, and raises issues that it's not realistic for me to push something that's much larger than myself - last week we were fighting a Fomorian (Giant-sized creature) and he would not let me push him as a result of Frontline Surge, despite there being no size restrictions for the power (in fact the only pushing power that has a restriction I'm aware of is Tide of Iron and that seems to be just because it's an at-will and infinitely spammable). I pointed out there was no rule saying this and he's like "Well, I don't like the idea of a medium-sized Dragonborn pushing a 20-something foot tall giant". He's said the same thing in regards to my Fighter's ability to stop enemies from moving.

Another example: He reads the word "immobilized" and takes it literally, thinking it's like paralysis. He once ruled that when you were immobilized in water, you automatically started to drown because you couldn't move, and he doesn't think you should get a save against bursts.

In short, how do I explain that, for instance, the word "push" is a status effect and a metagame term - it doesn't necessarily mean that I shove the dragon away, but that my blow makes him back up. I know the DM is always right, but...

 

[Doug McCrae]

Ironically, on RPG.net, I'm arguing that no power sources are 'not magical' in that they almost all have similiar abilities and that martial is no different.

D&D needs to come out and say fighters *are* magic. Even in 4e they're not safe from DMs' attempts at realism. Roll on 5e!

 

[jbear]

Good Advice: Talk to him. Not at the table, having a beer as suggested above. Explain your frustration and see if you can find a middle road.

Maybe you can come to a conclusion that the mechanics are as per the rules (Push moves the enemy away independant of size but it doesn't have to be a literal push), but you will invest your creativity describing your action so it makes sense to the DM in terms of logic.

'I drive my sword into the nervy area of the giants ankle causing him to hop back a step in pain'

I agree with Obryn that turning Immobilize into Stun is an error. An immobilzed creature can still attack freely. Only the legs don't move. In the water you could still move your arms. Actually it may even be simpler to move in water without using your legs than on solid ground.

I can swim without moving my legs. It's not as easy as when I use my legs so a penalty being imposed on the athletics check would seem very reasonable.

Logically I could drag myself across the floor as well. But then I'm not really immobilsed am I, unless my feet are stuck to the ground. But then how can your feet get stuck to water?

I think there is a call for consistency, if your DM is going to overrule game-mechanics to make a situation more plausible. I don't think he should seiously over-power an effect like immobilize. That can throw the game out of balance.

As a DM I really appreciate player feedback. When I mess up I keep that in mind the next time the situation arrives. Noone is perfect and and the DM is trying to keep a handle on a lot of things at once. I'm not sure what kind of guy your DM is, but hopefully reasonable enough to listen to your explanation of your feelings, especially if you do it calmy and respectfully.

 

[Parlan]

Don't I remember some text explaining what happens when flying creatures are tripped and go Prone?

It seemed like a good starting point for explaining that the default assumption in 4e is that the effects WILL apply to all creatures.

If your DM is unreceptive, I would also try saying, "will you let the effect stand if I can come up with a reasonable explanation?" That would at least mitigate some of the effects.

 

[howandwhy99]

I agree with a lot of the posters above. In 4E the combat game isn't considered part of roleplaying at all. Or really, it is considered the "scene resolution" between the story parts. You could as well drop the miniatures game and race dragsters to see who won the fight. It's as relevant to roleplaying and you would still be considered to be "roleplaying" throughout. As 4E's combat system is strictly resolution, then the rules should be known and followed by everyone at the table. The DM isn't a "DM" in that instance. Once the minis hit the table and the game board is exposed the DM has no authority over how that narrative resolution game plays out. EDIT: Not unless you consider him playing his minis as "DM" control. Combat in 4E is a competition between you and the DM where he can attempt to do anything he wants to against your PCs, but he still must follow the rules of the miniatures game before getting back to "roleplaying".

 

[arscott]

There's an important aspect of this that's being ignored: The flavor description.

The italicized description of Frontline surge doesn't actually use the word "push" at all. For the GM to ignore the description of what the power does in-game and instead derives his descriptive understanding from a power's technical shorthand is ridiculous.

The power says that the opponent is "beat back", and I'm happy to let the OP and his GM argue about whether or not that's possible. But to skip past the Italics and make your call based on the word that WotC happened to choose for a specific effect is as silly as saying "The monster doesn't loose any hit points to your fireball because you burned him instead of hitting him with something."