Why I think you should try 4e (renamed)

I am soooooo tired of that "reasoning".
Putting quotes around the word "reasoning" doesn't invalidate my point, RC. Nor the observations from over 20+ years of play that informed it. It's not, alas, much of a refutation, either :).

I've noticed that D&D traditionally scales. The PC's go up in character level so that they can venture down into the lower dungeon levels, so to speak. I've noticed the classic old-school modules were clearly marked as to what character level they were appropriate for. That they, in fact, frequently contained monsters that were commensurate with those levels.

Of course things have changed --implementation and methods of abstracting things, each with their own benefits and drawbacks. But others have stayed the same.
 

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In previous editions, PC's got more hit points, better to-hit bonuses, better AC's (from gear) and more 'special' ie, magical abilities as they advanced in level.

In order to fight monsters with more hit points, better to-hit bonuses, better AC's, and more special ie, magical abilities.

It seems to me this has always been the case during the 20 or so years I've run D&D. It's not new.

In AD&D, it was entirely a matter of your (Mallus's) choice to ensure that all 10th-level characters were going around with +5 magic, much less that all the monsters they met were likewise equipped -- a mighty unusual circumstance in my experience! Of course, to get the full 4E effect would have required basically ignoring the monster ratings and combat matrices.

I suppose I could likewise ignore the guidelines and procedures in 4E and substitute the 1E rulebooks ... but then, when I wrote of how I played, I would not really be addressing 4E design features, would I?

I'm not sure how "getting more stuff as I gain levels" equates with every 10th level character having +5 equipment.

Getting more stuff as I gain levels does, OTOH, sound pretty much like every single D&D campaign I've ever played in.

Never minding all the rules in 1e that specifically assume you will gain access to magic items - things like needing +1 weapons to hit and the like. But, this conversation has been beaten to death way too many times for me to try again.

I completely agree that it is a good thing for adventures to feature a variety of challenge levels. This helps keep adventures more unpredictable and less likely to become flat and boring (this applies to all editions).

This has nothing to do with actual improvement or a lack thereof. Facing lower level threats isn't a real measure of improvement, its picking on the little kids. Dealing more efficiently with threats on par with your ability is a better measure of overall improvement. Think of it like a batting average. If Joe the slugger has a .265 major league average and works hard to try and improve, facing single A pitchers and bragging about his new .375 average doesn't carry any weight in a major league game.

This one, otoh, is much more interesting. :)

Yes and no on the lower level threats isn't a real measure of improvement. Let's not forget, if I use lower level threats, my xp budget lets me use a lot more of them. And, because the scaling isn't THAT far out of line, I can use a whole bunch of say, -3 opponents and still make a good enough challenge.

But, again, this isn't what 4e encounter design is about. The DMG is pretty specific, as well as the Monster Manual, in showing that every encounter should include opponents from both sides of the fence. In other words, Joe the Slugger should face both Major and minor league pitchers in every single game he plays.

If you look at the suggested groups in the Monster manual, you see exactly that. Other than the solo's (obviously) you have mixed groups that run a fairly broad level range. Because the scaling in 4e is linear, it doesn't hurt so much to drop 4 levels with an opponent. You just use more of them. :) Conversely, it doesn't wind up being a binary alive/dead encounter if you go above the par either.

Like I said, I think you are absolutely right that the scaling would make for very boring encounters if you always used par monsters. Fortunately, the designers also agree with you and specifically tell us not to do that.
 

The term "preferred edition" still presumes D&D. 3E is one of my preferred systems. Or you could say D20 is. The fact that it is an edition of the D&D line is coincidental.

3E works great for me.

Me too.

Would you care to actually answer the question?
 

Just taking a quick moment to apologize to the minions.

Earlier in this thread, in exasperation over how many folks (with overlap in this thread) seemed to be arguing that common sense shouldn't be used when adjudicating 4e rules, I simply eschewed all common sense in adjudicating minion rules.

It was a lame, and ultimately futile, gesture, so I apologize.
I've given you XP too recently to give you another, but this is appreciated.
 

In AD&D, it was entirely a matter of your (Mallus's) choice to ensure that all 10th-level characters were going around with +5 magic, much less that all the monsters they met were likewise equipped -- a mighty unusual circumstance in my experience!
Note that I didn't say anything about +5 items in the hands of 10th level AD&D characters. This sounds an awful lot like a deliberate misreading of what I posted designed to cast me in a uncharitable light...

But anyway... my point has nothing to with my 'choice', other than in the broadest sense that I chose my friends and had some say in our recreational activities. This is what I observed over several years of play. It was commonplace. Largely, it was the result of stringing old AD&D tournament modules together and calling it a 'campaign'.

I ran games... differently once I transitioned from player to (mostly) full-time DM.

I suppose I could likewise ignore the guidelines and procedures in 4E and substitute the 1E rulebooks ... but then, when I wrote of how I played, I would not really be addressing 4E design features, would I?
In a few years time I believe we absolutely should evaluate 4e on how people actually played it. Heck, we should do that now, it's been out almost a year.
 
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Note that I didn't say anything about +5 items in the hands of 10th level AD&D characters. This sounds an awful lot like a deliberate misreading of what I posted designed to cast me in a uncharitable light...

But anyway... my point has nothing to with my 'choice', other than in the broadest sense that I chose my friends and had some say in our recreational activities. This is what I observed over several years of play. It was commonplace. Largely, it was the result of stringing old AD&D tournament modules together and calling it a 'campaign'.

I ran games... differently once I transitioned from player to (mostly) full-time DM.


In a few years time I believe we absolutely should evaluate 4e on how people actually played at it. Heck, we should do that now, it's been out almost a year.
That's an interesting topic indeed!
 

In previous editions, PC's got more hit points, better to-hit bonuses, better AC's (from gear) and more 'special' ie, magical abilities as they advanced in level.

In order to fight monsters with more hit points, better to-hit bonuses, better AC's, and more special ie, magical abilities.

It seems to me this has always been the case during the 20 or so years I've run D&D. It's not new.

As a basic principle of gaining levels you are correct but the devil is in the more precise implementation of those principles.

Magical equipment was available in 1E but the nature and power level of such gear varied a lot. Monster statistics were not designed assuming gear of a particular power level was available to the PC's. If the PC's did have powerful gear it afforded them a real advantage. WOTC D&D assumes a certain level of gear is present and the monster stats reflect this. This really means that all the magic goodies are not providing a real advantage. They are merely keeping the PC's from being SOL against competent foes. This is yet another effect of rigid scaling. X and Y will always balance out resulting in a net no gain/loss.
 

As a basic principle of gaining levels you are correct but the devil is in the more precise implementation of those principles.

Magical equipment was available in 1E but the nature and power level of such gear varied a lot. Monster statistics were not designed assuming gear of a particular power level was available to the PC's. If the PC's did have powerful gear it afforded them a real advantage. WOTC D&D assumes a certain level of gear is present and the monster stats reflect this. This really means that all the magic goodies are not providing a real advantage. They are merely keeping the PC's from being SOL against competent foes. This is yet another effect of rigid scaling. X and Y will always balance out resulting in a net no gain/loss.

I will 100% agree with you that pre-3e D&D did not worry overmuch about the math. :) That's certainly true. And it had advantages and disadvantages. The advantage was, you had a great deal of freedom. The disadvantage was largely the same.

I do think there was some nod to PC's having access to some magical equipment - you don't see "needs +3 weapons to be hit" on 4 hit die creatures. You do, however, see "Needs +1 weapons to be hit" on 4 hit die creatures (The gargoyle and hte wight IIRC) which certainly implies that you are going to have those kinds of equipment when you are around 4th level.

By disengaging the challenge assumptions from the wealth system you basically hand the whole problem to the DM. The DM has to determine the challenges of the adventure pretty much based entirely on his gut feeling, rather than any help from the books. IMO, this resulted in a lot of Monte Haul games where DM's over estimated what the players needed in order to face certain challenges. Or, it resulted in the opposite where groups were fighting over +1 Sporks at 7th level because it was the first magic item they found.

It becomes extremely difficult, at least without a great deal of trial and error, to find the balance.
 

It is fatuous to claim that matters of degree and precise implementations do not matter, when those are just what matters in a mathematical construct! A cup of tea is wet, and so is Lake Superior -- so there's no difference?

Monsters in fact did not get better ACs by level. The ACs remained, regardless of level, overwhelmingly in the same range as literal armor classes (and even more within the range of those plus dexterity bonus, applicable from 1st level) except for exceptional types such as demons, devils, certain dragons, and ki-rin.

Here are ACs for some of the toughest monsters (those in the Monster Level X table, along with Demon Princes and Arch-Devils):
Beholder: 0/2/7
Red Dragon: -1 (regardless of age)
Iron Golem: 3
Lich: 0
Elder Titan: -3
Vampire: 1

A 1st-level character with plate mail and shield would have AC 2; dexterity 18 would improve that to -2. The original tournament characters (level 7-13) in D1-2 have ACs ranging from 1 to -4.
 
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This one, otoh, is much more interesting. :)

Yes and no on the lower level threats isn't a real measure of improvement. Let's not forget, if I use lower level threats, my xp budget lets me use a lot more of them. And, because the scaling isn't THAT far out of line, I can use a whole bunch of say, -3 opponents and still make a good enough challenge.

But, again, this isn't what 4e encounter design is about. The DMG is pretty specific, as well as the Monster Manual, in showing that every encounter should include opponents from both sides of the fence. In other words, Joe the Slugger should face both Major and minor league pitchers in every single game he plays.

I think it can be mixed up depending on campaign events. Some sessions might be chock full of tough guys and others with smaller threats. It's all good if it balances out and makes sense in the context of the campaign.


Like I said, I think you are absolutely right that the scaling would make for very boring encounters if you always used par monsters. Fortunately, the designers also agree with you and specifically tell us not to do that.

The improvement that I was speaking of comes from a much different scaling rate between attacks and AC. A 1E fighter might get +4 to hit after gaining 4 levels, but the average AC of his foes will not be 4 higher (or lower as the case may be:p). This means that the fighter will actually be hitting more often vs a par opponent (unless the dice hate him).
 

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