How do you explain overnight Healing in your game?

No, an adrenaline surge is what every PC has at the start of a fight when they realize their life is in danger. It prepares the body for fight or flight. Last I checked, you don't lose a healing surge for entering combat.
I have run numerous times until very winded and yup got a second wind and that is caused by yup a surge of adrenaline to overcome the muscle pain we call fatigue. The fear surges you feel often aren't at the start of the activity but when things get hairy and when you get hurt ..not just the initial flight or fight.
The lady fell down the cliff damaged incredibly and managed to travel many miles is an extremist example... because it represents a phenomena of adrenaline surges suppressing pain and which doctors says is common and more extreme than I think any hero in any story I have read experienced - maybe thats just a sign I dont read enough.(Adrenaline also gives burst speed and other effects cause its the bodies supercharger... and why I think barbarian rages should expend healing surges but that is my own issue).
Healing surges are bloody obviously a significant part of the simulation of Adrenaline Surges but they only represent part of what an adrenaline surge represents ... umm so what? its a damn good paralell and you are being disingenuous to claim otherwise (there are a group of powers whose fluff also invoke adrenal surges and pain suppression and who also interact with hitpoints and thp).

I admit I was reaching saying psychic damage seems to be morale depletion while I do mark it that way for a few Bard attacks most (are dominations and charm effects wreaking havoc).

There are also effects like Warlord healing also based around hit points being partially reflection of morale and you havent got anywhere near refuting hitpoints acting as morale in the case of intimidate attacks against the bloodied.(you fluffed around it)

The backgrounds that allow different stats to act as the basis for hit points. Is another divorcing of hit points from physical damage and a nod towards other elements.

Because hit points represent multiple things they very much cant represent any of them exactly especially in a one to one corresponding way all the things which interact with them are doomed to do so at an abstraction level.
 
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once again...

PCs are superheroes.
/endthread.

This game is not at all truly and utterly not false (purley in terms of likeness to the real world and its scientific laws) and should not be super realistic.
 
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Well, lets look at that for a second, shall we?

HPs include "fatigue." Reasonable to think since resting gets you back healing surges which means you get your HPs back I suppose. But lets look at things that fatigue people. Climbing, jumping and oh, say... running an ultra marathon. These things cause fatigue, do any of them cause HP loss in 4E? No. No they don't. I think it's pretty believable that someone that just ran a marathon, swam a lake, kayaked up a rapids, swung a sword for 10 minutes and climbed a cliff is not in the same fighting shape as someone who didn't. But there are no rules in 4E for physical or mental exertion reducing HPs. In previous editions exhaustion and the like often gave a penalty to attack and skill rolls. So I think it's pretty clear that HPs and fatigue are not in fact related at all.

Your claim that hit points are divorced from fatigue aren't true. Many of these examples fall into the realms of Endurance checks, and Endurance checks *can* cause loss of healing surges and hit point loss. "Climbing a cliff" wasn't specifically mentioned, but "climbing a mountain" is.

HPs include "moral." Well whats the most obvious case of moral break? Fear. What does fear from, say, a dragon do in 4E, does it reduce HPs? No, it involves an attack penalty, much like previous editions. In some cases it involves stunning or running away, but nowhere does loss of moral cause HP damage. Likewise a successful intimidation check against bloodied opponents doesn't drop them to the ground dead. So again, it seems pretty clear HPs and moral are completely unrelated according to the actual rules of 4E.
The fact that you can't intimidate someone until they are bloodied doesn't make you think that hit point loss doesn't have *something* to do with morale? Once an NPC surrenders, is allowed to retreat their hit points don't really matter anymore.

What causes HP damage? Being hit with things, fire, hostile magic and magical effects, falling off a cliff and all things that we associate with wounding, bone breaking and the like. Additionally removal of things required to sustain human life such as starvation, suffocation and dehydration will also, unsurprisingly, cause HP loss.
Or exhaustion from climbing a mountain, hiking through the cold, hot weather, or at a high altitude, or swimming great distances.

Or in the case of Astral Terror, reeling from divine terror.
Or in the case of Vicious Mockery, being sent into a blind rage.
Or in the case of Dishearten, having your will to fight sapped.
Or in the case of Ravening Thought, having your thoughts invaded by ideas barbed by contradictions and horrors.
Or in the case of Fortune's Reversal, having your luck and happiness turn into misfortune and sorrow.
Or in the case of Prophecy of Zhudun, having a vision flash into your mind that is so horrifying you lose track of your surroundings.
Or in the case of Spiteful Glamor, being filled with detest and loathing.
Or in the case of Dreadful Word, having your mind reel with terror.
Or in the case of Horrid Whispers, being heavily distracted and driven to obsession.

Those are just level 1 powers that have hit point loss from effects that cause fear, confusion, will power, morale and anger and similar descriptions. I left out things such as illusions or "mental blasts".

Although debates like this happened in previous editions because HPs are an odd abstraction, they were nothing like what we get in 4E with the addition of the utterly bizarre healing surge mechanic which has no parallel in real life. The only answer is to accept that it has no parallel, stop trying to call it moral or make some other excuse for it being a simplification or abstraction for something because it's not. Just accept it's a game mechanic and move along. NPCs are for killing or getting plot hooks from.
I've always thought that having a second wind does have parallels in real life, as well as in fiction. Healing surges are really just an extended hit points pool that you can't have all at once. Now I can't say that healing overnight has a parallel in real life, but neither does shooting magical fireballs and killing dragons.

But frankly, I'm baffled as to why this is even a debate. The game designers came out and said that it's not *just* wounds. They didn't imply it. They didn't hint at it. They flat out stated it. They gave examples of it. They flavored powers based on it.

Now if you don't like that, fine. If you don't want it to be like that in your game, fine. But for you to come in here and tell everyone that they are wrong for defining a game term in the very way that the game designer said that the game term is defined is absolutely ludicrous.

Furthermore, I'm completely and utterly confounded how the very people who refuse to see hit points as anything other than wounds then turn around and rail against the powers that don't fit their view. Of course it's not going to. If you reject the game designer's usage of the term, then of course some of the applications of that term aren't going to make sense.

You can say you don't like this representation, but saying this representation isn't true is nonsense.
 


In a game where you have magic that can raise the dead, create things out of nothing, spontaneously regenerate any creature....

....there is a problem of suspension of disbelief that someone might -actually- use these things outside of battle, and that such a system could be explained as easily as 'You heal to full at the end of each extended rest.'

Seriously, some people -really- need to learn rational places to draw their lines of versimilliatude.
 


We're playing a video game. I don't really have to explain it, and there's no WAY to explain it that is remotely logical. But it's fun and i don't really mind that it doesn't mirror real life. In reality, D&D heroes would be stone cold dead after one stab from a kobold with a rusty kitchen knife.

I would like it though if surges didn't recharge so fast, that would help the suspension of disbelief more.
 

In a game where you have magic that can raise the dead, create things out of nothing, spontaneously regenerate any creature....

....there is a problem of suspension of disbelief that someone might -actually- use these things outside of battle, and that such a system could be explained as easily as 'You heal to full at the end of each extended rest.'

Seriously, some people -really- need to learn rational places to draw their lines of versimilliatude.

Stop with the generic insults, thanks.

The issue as portrayed crops up in all-martial parties, with no magic around at all. I can understand how this would cause annoyance to people wanting to have a semblance of verisimilitude.

For me personally, in 4e I just ignore it. The only wounds that get described are killing wounds and that's it. The system is too abstract for me to worry about doing more (this has been true for all D&D IMX).

If I want descriptive wounds and a slightly higher level of verisimilitude, I turn to RQ2 where "You hack his arm off" is a meaningful result in combat which can be fast and bloody!

Cheers
 

Wow, I make a post and come back 2 days later and see there are 4 pages worth of responses. Never expected that.

Time to start reading. But I too have been using the John McClain style descriptions.

Here was a recent email to my players after a game:

Thorgim and Rix take turns on watch, letting Kadius get rested. The night goes by uneventful other than odd noises that only manage to make you paranoid.

Rix does all he can to rub off the acid that left his leathers scarred and discolored. His skin is still peeling from it ... like a bad sunburn.

You all get a good rest, and by morning, despite being bruised and battered, you are filled with determination to find your friend.

Kadius finishes wrapping his torso with scraps of cloth taken from whats left of his cloak. His back had taken the brunt of the acid burns as the acid made its way down through small openings in his scale armor.

He puts on his armor, grabs his sword and shield, and stands ready. "They caught us off guard. This time we will have the upper hand." He says with renewed energy.

"I like your confidence, but I saw many Kobolds. We may end up prisoners as well ... or worse." Rix says as he restores all his daggers to their proper locations.

"Take heart, this happened for a reason. Fate takes strange turns, but we may be right where we need to be." Thorgrim picks up his shield and looks ready to move.

"I hope you're right," Rix replies. "Follow me, and stay silent."
 

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