D&D General Could a real human survive your D&D adventures?

[jasper]

Poor OOFTA he save us all. Now keep running to the temple.
Ghost of Oofta, "Mother BEEP you Jasper you pushed into that Kobold. Let see how you fare without your glasses." Yoink!

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Does Indiana Jones count as a real human?

 

[Chaosmancer]

As a matter of stylistic preference, I kind of make it a point that real people can't. That you need to be heroic to survive.

That said, I do think it's (darkly) amusing that many fans of games, shows, and movies don't realize how incredibly deadly humans are. The Monster Manual is full of creatures that frankly wouldn't pose much of a threat even to Stone Age humans, let alone modern technology. Recent research indicates our ancestors wreaked devastation on all megafauna tens of thousands of years before we invented gunpower or even metalworking. They reliably took down elephants and mammoths with stone-tipped javelins, and only got more dangerous from there. The reality is that D&D actually nerfs humans, particularly human weaponry, far more than most realize.

So while I tend to rely on supernatural elements to create existential threats, I think OP's question changes depending on the context. There is a significant difference between reality vs. "real humans" as D&D characters without special abilities, and it's the latter that's far weaker.

While very true, there is largely two factors at play.

DnD does not simulate blood loss and exhaustion very well, and wearing down our prey was a major part of that.

Most of the megafauna we hunted was largely stupid. The problem with DnD is a good deal of the megafauna or other massive threats are just as smart as us, and some of them even work together.

I'm not going to deny that humans are utter badasses in this world. But there is also a lot that we dealt with through trial and error. If we came across, say, a pool near a volcano emitting hydrogen sulfide and sulfur dioxide (an extremely deadly toxic gas) we largely didn't conquer that area, but learned "anyone stepping to close to the demon spring falls over dead" and that generally took say, three to six people dying. This matters, because a lot of dungeons that adventurers explore are EXACTLY like this, where they have hazards that would flat out kill people, and the general human response to that for a long, long, long time was "avoid area, instant death"

This is why it is important to consider hazards and magical effects in addition to fighting monsters. Sure, I could believe that a human civilization, given enough time, manpower, and tools, could take down a wyvern. They are incredibly deadly and insanely smart for a beast, but we could do it.

Could we take down a platoon of giants? With military training and tools of their own?
Could a group with no knowledge of magic deal with an angry dryad turning a forest against them?
Could we survive going into a room, opening a bag, and getting a face full of spores that can kill us within 6 seconds of exposure?

Those are the bigger questions.

 

[Guest 7037866]

I don't understand why you keep say "as per the OP" for things that I can't find in the OP.

Here:
So, I started thinking about the title while reading a Reddit thread about adventurers with disabilities, many people there were claiming it was a ridiculous concept, since they couldn't possibly survive the dangers in dungeons and such. I initially thought it was silly argument, since in the games I've played even a completely healthy person would probably die a hundred times over between all the fights with giant monsters, being hit by lightning, fire, explosions, bullets, and waves of poison, getting beaten to a pulp and completely recovering in a night, etc. The PCs only survive due to superhuman abilities granted by their classes and general D&D mechanics, all of which a disabled character would have as well.

But that's not necessarily how people play, and a lot of games have more grounded situations for the players to face, so I figured I could ask here what people think. Could real people survive in the games you've played or DM'd? A party with normal human limits, with no class abilities, magic, luck, divine favor or any game-granted ability that wouldn't be possible in real life. They can't use any modern technology or metagame knowledge, but they can be as capable as a real person could physically be (so 200 IQ Navy Seals are fine), and any magic items a regular party would find along the way are fair game as well.

Could they complete your adventurers, or at least survive all the challenges? If not, where do you think they'd fail?

The "no class abilities" IMO basically means no class, because every feature provided by a class is a class ability. That include hit points, proficiencies, etc. Including to magic, etc. as well.

Being a "real human" doesn't mean you can't have levels. In fact, 3e had rules for high level mundane NPCs that explicitly had no special abilities, but still had things like HP, skills, and other basic class mechanics. So you could easily have a level 20 Commoner or Aristocrat.

You'd have to ask @Zubatcarteira concerning that. The bolded part above would indicate those rules wouldn't be applicable IMO, so I go with that.

That's how you fight superior foe. Ambush tactics. Not so remote, it was part of dwarven kingdom, one of their supply routes. Dragon wasn't stupid. It knew dwarfs use those mountain roads to haul goods, which was primo place for easy fly by plundering of livestock and food supply. So party tracked dragon movements, patterns, with help from caravan people and route wardens. Extensive scouting and research about foe was done, so was in choosing right time and spot for setting ambush point.

Yeah, it was sort of stupid if it acted like that. But hey, white dragons were the lowest intelligence dragon, so sure...

But a 13 HD, 60-ish HP, AC -1

Lv 4 in 2ed AD&D. Our party fighter had 15HP, ranger 18, thief had 10, wizard was at 8. Don't know if you played it, but you rolled for HP at every level, even first. So fighter with 1 hp at lv1 was also possible. Also, stats were 3d6, arrange as you wish, so good luck getting that extra 15 needed to put into CON for extra 1 hp per level. Normal human would definitely fall into lv 3-4 ad&d character. As in, 1-2 good hits from sword and you are dead.

Yeah, I know how AD&D played, 1E as well as 2E. Played it for decades.

Fighter with 1 hp at 1st level? Wouldn't have made it to 4th IMO. Stats were 3d6 arrange in 2E, but they were 4d6 drop lowest in 1E, method V for 2E IIRC. I'll post the pages if you don't remember that.

I really don't know anyone who played 2E with 3d6, arranged. Most came from 1E, where 4d6 drop lowest was the norm and default method. Only those from B/X embraced 3d6, where bonuses began at 12. Anyway, most groups rolled several times to get a PC with decent scores, regardless of method. IME usually a minimum of 3 sets of scores.

However, all that is neither here nor there...

A "normal human" is not a 3-4 level AD&D character. You should also know "normal humans" rolled 3d6, treating 1's as 3's and 6's as 4's according to the DMG 1E. I'd guess 2E was the same, but would have to dig through my books to verify that and it might not be included in 2E.

Also Fighters had weapon specialization, Rangers giant-class foes, Magic-Users / Mages spells... all things "normal humans" don't have. Again, refer to the OP for what qualifies for this discussion/thread as "normal human".

So, no, normal humans were not really close to adventurers.

No. It was just few sessions of extensive prep work to set things in place, formulate plan, gather equipment, resources etc. Overlapping fields of fire, negating one big dragons advantage (flight), surprise attack with artillery, and of course, right spot. Pillboxes where just basic round low stone buildings with slits for crossbows, same type farmers build across our islands for hundreds of years ( they are built across Mediterranean region,specially islands) as shelter from storms. Built couple with my grandpa as a kid in our olive gardens. Fighting dragon in narrow gorge is like infantry fighting tanks in urban environment, same tactical principles, modified for fantasy.

FWIW, I know about pill boxes, military strategy, etc. I don't need the details on that, myself.

I was more talking about some of the resources you had available: steel cables for example? Not something you'd find in most D&D games IMO. Not to mention getting everything in position without the dragon learning about it? If it watched the trade route for prey, etc. seems a bit of a stretch it would never have noticed the movement of scorpios into positions, attaching steel cabels to the mountains, building the pillboxes, and every thing else you did for prep.

As i said, 2ed was much more realistic, specially low levels. Low hp, low to hit, you needed way higher stats for bonuses (at least 15, sometimes even 16). So normal humans have same chance as PCs to survive low level adventures. They just have to play it very smart and don't try to act a hero.

More realistic, yes, but not realistic when it comes to "normal humans". Commoners in 5E, by comparison, have a chance of survival not much worse than some 1st-level characters in 5E, if they "play it very smart and don't try to act a hero."

If you run your game that way, then sure, a normal human might make it as an adventurer, but IME no one plays their games that way.

 

[Guest 7037866]

The Monster Manual is full of creatures that frankly wouldn't pose much of a threat even to Stone Age humans, let alone modern technology. Recent research indicates our ancestors wreaked devastation on all megafauna tens of thousands of years before we invented gunpower or even metalworking. They reliably took down elephants and mammoths with stone-tipped javelins, and only got more dangerous from there. The reality is that D&D actually nerfs humans, particularly human weaponry, far more than most realize.

While you have a valid point, I think it is important to also look at the other side... humans did take down elephants, mammoths, etc. but often times were injured or died in the process. It was also typically several humans vs. one creature, which they ran to exhaustion, harassing, etc. the entire time.

Now, take those Stong Age humans and put them up against a chimera, for example. Enough humans will eventually kill it, sure, but they'd lose dozens in the process. In 5E terms, given high enough numbers, even hundreds or thousands, of commoners with bows would kill an adult dragon.

D&D doesn't nerf human weaponry IMO. But the game isn't designed around having masses of humanoids (PCs, hirelings, etc.) battle creatures---it is designed around the party.

Anyway, consider an elephant in 5E. It would take about 12-15 "hits" to reduce it to 0 hp. With an AC of 12, a dozen Stone Age "hunters" could probably take it down in 2-3 rounds. Sure, some of them might get hurt or even killed if they got too close. But strategy could allow one or two hunters to be "targets" while the rest use hit-and-run tactics. And of course, bows and thrown spears, as well as the classic maneuver it into a tight space / off a cliff move, help a lot, too.

Finally, this bring up a pet peeve I have, not really related to the thread: having a bonus to damage raise the minimum. The 5E elephant, for example, due to Strength CANNOT deal less than 9 damage. Which outright KILLS a commoner, even though IRL people have surviving elephant attacks. IMO every attack, I don't care what it is, should be able to deal only 1 point of damage, regardless of modifiers.

 

[Gammadoodler]

So at level 1, a "medium" encounter might pit me and 3 friends against a brown bear, a creature that weighs between 180 and 1300 lbs, that can run 35mph.

And under 5e expectations, me and my 3 friends might take this match 6-8 times in a day.

Would we survive? Absolutely not. Each bear has a punchers' chance to eviscerate a member of the party every encounter, and each party member eviscerated makes the subsequent combat more dangerous.

We'd be lucky to last a week.

Edit: and most of that week would have been spent wondering how we've made it through each day.

 

[Clint_L]

So at level 1, a "medium" encounter might pit me and 3 friends against a brown bear, a creature that weighs between 180 and 1300 lbs, that can run 35mph.

And under 5e expectations, me and my 3 friends might take this match 6-8 times in a day.

Would we survive? Absolutely not. Each bear has a punchers' chance to eviscerate a member of the party every encounter, and each party member eviscerated makes the subsequent combat more dangerous.

We'd be lucky to last a week.

You'd be lucky to last one encounter if the bear actually wanted to harm you. We have a lot of bears where I live. Fortunately, they want nothing to do with people.

I took the topic at face value, and, taking our last game as an example, imagined four regular human beings fighting five wights. Like, me and three people I work with.

We don't last a round unless we run. Most likely, we freak out when we see these horrible undead monstrosities and are immediately dispatched.

Going back to the OP, I agree that using realism as an argument for why wheelchair-bound characters couldn't survive in D&D is ableist nonsense in a game that is all about heroic fantasy. I have a player with some serious physical challenges who wanted to play a character in a wheelchair. She was really touched and happy when I found and painted a miniature for her character. How is that anything but good for the game?

 

[Chaosmancer]

View attachment 374429

Those are quite excellent.

 

[Horwath]

I don't care what it is, should be able to deal only 1 point of damage, regardless of modifiers.

Add weapons base max damage to attack roll.
Do not roll for damage.
Every point over AC deals one extra damage.

beat AC by 20 points, deal 20 damage.

some work on armor damage reduction, weapon base damage might be needed for balance.

you only make one roll.
it is possible to deal only one damage with attack, but a very low one.

 

[Scott Christian]

You'd be lucky to last one encounter if the bear actually wanted to harm you. We have a lot of bears where I live. Fortunately, they want nothing to do with people.

Screw bears, I've hiked around enough of them to know that one way to stay safe is have an Akita inside your tent. But, the real thing to be scared about are flipping snakes! Can you imagine a yuan-ti talking to a bunch of cobras and telling them to come and attack you. I'm out!