Slow combats

[lkjopajdowma]

Compared to other editions, I find 4th's combat to be lightning quick. We run combats at around 45-50 minutes. I've tried the suggested intitiative change (people go as a group and take their turns when they want) discussed in this thread, and I must say it does speed things up and discourage inattentiveness. I'd recommend everyone try it once.

I discussed this with one member of my group (the guy who was DMing before me), and we came to the conclusion that some of our group tries to play other people's characters enough as it is.

I'm making the monsters go a bit more clustered together from my side of the screen, though.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Umm, BTW, what is Ars Ludi?????

Anyone?

 

[weem]

Anyone?

"...Ars Ludi is a blog of roleplaying game theory, GM craft, game design, and whatever else comes to mind..."

Here is a link to the initiative post...

ars ludi » Initiative: the Silent Killer

 

[Obryn]

For my group (at 11th now), monster HPs are just fine, as are monster defenses. Actually, I'm pretty thrilled at how well that part is working.

My biggest issues are two-fold.

(1) My players take quite a bit of time when it comes to their rounds, deciding what to do.

(2) They are slow with the math sometimes.

They do tons of damage, even lacking a striker. The party's fighter and warlord can really dish it out. I don't want to seriously reduce monster HPs, because I like the fights to take more than 3-4 rounds.

-O

 

[mach1.9pants]

"...Ars Ludi is a blog of roleplaying game theory, GM craft, game design, and whatever else comes to mind..."

Here is a link to the initiative post...

ars ludi » Initiative: the Silent Killer

Thanks

 

[Novem5er]

The 50% hitpoint rule.

*SNIP*

So with all of those factors, here's my take home message: START SMALL!!

A 50% change in hitpoints is a huge alteration. Try 15%, 20%....and see how that goes. Run that for a while and see if its to your liking. The greater the change you make, the more likely other things will crop up you just didn't account for when running the numbers (like the points I mentioned...and others even I didn't think of).

Stalker0, thanks for the input. You make some excellent points here, and I'll take them into consideration as I continue running my game.

However, I've been running the 50% HP, + (1/2 level + 1) damage for about a month now, and I keep having the same thought over and over again:

On paper, it doesn't look like the monsters are doing enough damage... but IN GAME, ever battle is a knock down brawl where the players each spend at least 1-2 healing surges a battle, and usually 1 or 2 players drop or almost drop.

I can't imagine adding any more damage at this point. The problem, as you greatly explained, is the Burst damage. Players can take medium hits round after round, but there's a threshold that makes players drop too quickly.

Since my group is composed of primarily causal players who just want to have fun and get excited throwing some dice, my system works well. Even our tactician rules-lawyer RP-vet says the sessions have been a blast and feel balanced. Monsters die quicker, but hit harder (though on paper, not MUCH harder), and players are constantly dropping dangerously below Bloodied.

I'm not against adding more damage to the monsters to make the math balance... but I just see that being more frustrating to players than anything else.

Strangely, I make the same recommendation as you did towards the end of your post: try just shaving off 25% HP, or 33%. See how that goes.

I jumped straight to 50% for 2 reasons:

1. I SERIOUSLY needed to speed up combat with my group, and yelling at them to play FASTER wasn't going to work ;P

2. As a DM, it's easier for me to pull out any monster and "do the math"... just look at the Bloodied HP stat, and that's now its normal HP. On every attack, just add 1/2 level + 1 for damage. Simple, easy, no calculator or estimation required.

 

[AllisterH]

For my group (at 11th now), monster HPs are just fine, as are monster defenses. Actually, I'm pretty thrilled at how well that part is working.

My biggest issues are two-fold.

(1) My players take quite a bit of time when it comes to their rounds, deciding what to do.


-O

This may come as a weird idea but may I suggest your players, if they play videogames, pick up a couple of japanese tactical RPGs?

My players are all fans/aficiandos of this genre (we argue about whether Fire Emblem vs Disgaea like people argue 4e vs 3e) and thus, combat in 4e for us is very fast

(I kid you not when a boss battle a.k.a level +4/+5 encounter only takes us 25 minutes and that's with 6 PCs plus one DM)

 

[Aloïsius]

Stalker0, thanks for the input. You make some excellent points here, and I'll take them into consideration as I continue running my game.

However, I've been running the 50% HP, + (1/2 level + 1) damage for about a month now, and I keep having the same thought over and over again:

On paper, it doesn't look like the monsters are doing enough damage... but IN GAME, ever battle is a knock down brawl where the players each spend at least 1-2 healing surges a battle, and usually 1 or 2 players drop or almost drop.

It seems logical : higher input damage means that players are forced to use healing surge sooner, or that they drop sooner. Anyway, this diminish their efficiency against the monsters (an unconscious rogue won't do much damage, a fighter using his second wind neither). And this is why you don't need to up the damage as much as you lowered the HP of the monsters.

 

[FireLance]

From a mechanical standpoint, self correcting mechanics like these are the best way to correct flaws in game design....but they often have a big price that isn't picked up until Playtesting. Its what I like to call the "Dodge Problem" or the "Bard Bonus problem".

...

So the moral is be careful about assuming mechanics introduced mid fight will solve your problem. Players that suddenly have to remember new bonuses may not remember them half as much as you would like.

I know what you mean, and I'm planning to use props to get around the problem.

First, there's going to be a stack of cards on the table with the damage bonus, attack bonus and crit range bonus for several combat rounds (say 1 to 9) printed on them and the one for the current round at the top. I use initiative cards, so there's also going to be a card in there to remind me to flip the cards over to the one for the next combat round after every combatant has taken a turn. Between the card on the table and my announcement of the new values after everyone has had a turn, I'm hoping that the players will remember to add the combat escalation bonuses.

 

[Jack99]

Just an update, in case it had any interest.

Last night, in my usual campaign (players are level 17), I changed all monsters (so easy with Monster Builder) by removing 33% of their hit points and adding +50% damage (for example, 3d8+7 became 3d8+17).

I was very happy with the result. The fights were fast and furious. The first 3 fights were fairly simple n to n+2 fights. All three lasted between 15 and 24 minutes, including initiative setup etc. The last fight lasted 1h15 but that was *final battle* against a trio of vampire - so lots of regeneration and dominating effects. It was supposed to be long, but I didn't expect (after the duration of the 3 first fights) that it would last that long. Should probably have clocked in around 45 minutes, but I made the list of powers of the vampires way too long and I think I took too much time per round.

Either way, I am still pumped about last night. 15-25 minutes is perfect (for me) for fast and brutal fights, but with a certain amount of tactical options.