It's Dark Sun

[frankthedm]

I'm a little bit confused onto why so many people get these ideas in their heads about that line from the designers that they're not messing with the flavor of the setting unless they have to. 4e ITSELF has a different design philosophy. and that overrides everything that dark sun could be. 4e, (and 3e was as well) Heroic fantasy, 24/7. You won't be worrying about heat, thirst, starvation, or being slaves, any more than you would be in regular D&D. because those are the guys who you SAVE from being so pathetic in the universe.

I have worries along those lines, but I'm trying to give wotc the benefit of the doubt, at least for the moment.

Plus this might be wotc's attempt to get players for 4E who don't play it because those 4E conceits turn their stomachs. A harsher setting for those who waved goodbye because of all the "Its fun!" Handwaves in 4E.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm a little bit confused onto why so many people get these ideas in their heads about that line from the designers that they're not messing with the flavor of the setting unless they have to. 4e ITSELF has a different design philosophy. and that overrides everything that dark sun could be. 4e, (and 3e was as well) Heroic fantasy, 24/7. You won't be worrying about heat, thirst, starvation, or being slaves, any more than you would be in regular D&D. because those are the guys who you SAVE from being so pathetic in the universe.

if you already have the setting, any chance you could let us know what else it is like...

 

[Korgoth]

Is the Prism Pentad that hated? .

Basically.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

You won't be worrying about heat, thirst, starvation, or being slaves, any more than you would be in regular D&D.

I've played Dark Sun for many years, including many years after the setting was retired. I've been a regular on Dark Sun mailing lists and forums for years.

I can tell you that most long time Dark Sun fans I am aware of used the given dehydration and heat rules for Dark Sun briefly, then gave up on those rules. Keeping track of thirst and heat in 2e Dark Sun was the suck. If only because low level spells obviated those rules. Just the same way knock made rogue's open locks ability redundant, create water took the harsh of Athas. Then there was the tedium of simply tracking your PCs status.

After a while, most of us simply ditched those rules because spellcasters were always parking the requisite spells that neutralized the environment effects for the party . . . which made the casters just that less effective at the deadly low levels. It wasn't long until we figured this out and just turned off the environment rules so our spellcasters could get their spells back while we hand waved it all as "the party has taken all precautions against the environment".

As a longtime Dark Sun fan, I will not be tossing fits if there were no mechanics for thirst and heat to follow, leaving it all up to DMs setting the mood. No skin off my back. It got old back then.

But (!) if the designers can come up with interesting ways to challenge PCs at all levels with environmental effects, ways that didn't require tedious tracking of conditions, then I'll gladly take this "messing with the setting" with joy.

 

[Dausuul]

I'm a little bit confused onto why so many people get these ideas in their heads about that line from the designers that they're not messing with the flavor of the setting unless they have to. 4e ITSELF has a different design philosophy. and that overrides everything that dark sun could be. 4e, (and 3e was as well) Heroic fantasy, 24/7. You won't be worrying about heat, thirst, starvation, or being slaves, any more than you would be in regular D&D. because those are the guys who you SAVE from being so pathetic in the universe.

Yup, 4E Dark Sun will be easy. All you have to do is prepare a couple of first-level spells like create water and endure elements, and no more worries about dying of thirst or heat stroke...

...oh, wait, no, that was 2E Dark Sun. In 4E, those spells are rituals which will rapidly drain your cash reserves if you cast them daily. Nor can you simply teleport across the wastelands once you hit 9th level.

I don't know if 4E Dark Sun will have rules for dehydration and starvation. But at least it has the potential for such things to be a serious concern, which 2E did not.

Is the Prism Pentad that hated?

Prism what? I don't know what you're talking about. There were never any novels published for Dark Sun. Nor were there any adventures, and they certainly never made a Revised boxed set. Nope, the original box was the only Dark Sun product ever.

 

[Andor]

I just thought of a cool 4e/Darksun synergy. Suppose in the ancient past of Athas, back when it was still a cool green world with gods, the head of the pantheon was a sun god. And he did the normal sort of good god thing and imbued some of his worshippers with some of his divine essence (IE Made them aasimars) to lead his people.

Unfortunately he was also the same nameless sun god whom Asmodeus slew. On Athas the sun turned black and hostile. The warping of his heaven into the 9 hells also warped the very flesh and blood of his aasimar into tieflings. And no lesser god of his pantheon has answered a prayer on Athas since that black and terrible day, a day which twisted the nature of magic itself...

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Totally cool with that.

I do think defiling should be an option for players. The allure and appeal of the "dark side" should be there. You don't have to use it...but it's always there, saying, "hey, wouldn't it be nice to kill these guys a little faster? and will the world really notice just one more little patch of grass?"

Most of the classes shouldn't be a tough fit once you determine what the power sources are drawing on. If all "divine" classes are in service to a sorcerer-king, and all "primal" classes are in service to the elements, and all "arcane" classes have the preserving/defiling option, the individual classes more or less run together.

The thing is, the disconnect from the planes is pretty important to me for the feel of the game. There can be no "fiendish blood," and any "outsider pacts" (even with elemental princes) would leave a pretty bad taste in my mouth. The idea of Athas as an isolated world where there are no angels or demons or outsiders, only forces, is key to the brutality of it. There's nothing to relate to, no mirror you can hold up, nothing alongside this world. There is this world -- this blasted hellscape -- and nothing else. Even death is just nothingness. Everything has to live under the same environmental devestation. The inter-connectedness of the ecosystem is kind of kicked in the junk if the ecosystem is made of magic like the Feywild. Defiling has broken nature;

oh agreed! It's just that Players should think long and hard about being a defiler...bust it out to deal with that possibly-fatal-ecounter...and everyone would turn on you? or work with scumbags who'd sell you out? hehe all good

Conenctions to the Abyss were hinted at storngly several times, so tieflings don't bother me, especially with having them just be "mutations" or some weird folk from far away (fire resistance = perfect sense for Athas!).

if you take Athas as being heavily tied to the elemental Planes, which it is, then having demonic issues is ok...but, the Grey gets in the way of planar travel so much as demons really admire defilers, lol, it's kind of hard for them to get to Athas and visa-versa

I wonder if they will also still have the Athasian "gith" as being relatives to the Githyanki as noted in the Black Spine adventure?

At last!
Maybe now we can get some more Darksun figures.

I saw some of the RAL PARTHA Dark Sun figures, in original boxes going for INSANE prices earlier this year on Ebay, sigh...*drool*

I don't have any of my own Dark Sun minis pics on my site, most though have been stripped and need re-painting!

As for 4eisms in Dark Sun, I think that Tieflings can fit in that there's plenty of "mutants" in Athas, and some of them would seem at home in the Elf Tribes. The Villichi or whatever that secretive tribe of female humanoids could very well be Devas, and the Ruvkova of the Elemental planes are very clearly Genasi.

yeah as said, if you let Athas = world of mutation, it solves lot of issues!
I remember the Villichi! yes, Devas would do well for them!
Can't recall the Ruvkova though name is familiar, but genasi would make sense as elementla planes are so important ot Athas, ie you can imagine an elemental cleric having half-elemental children

Wow! At least a dozen posts about how the Shadowfell can fit in DS and no one has mentioned The Gray or The Black. Is the Prism Pentad that hated? The Gray and The Black were the Shadowfell before there was a Shadowfell.
.

The grey isn't the Shadowfell, the Grey was...odd, Grey was more like the Negative Material Plane acting as a trap around Athas? it was far more like a sort of oh Hades, etc etc. But I know what you mean

In my own version of Athas I said the Grey was caused when the gods were destroyed/banished trying to stop the Sun of Athas going nova...leaving a toxic horrible "break" around Athas, sealing it off with a sort of spiritual pollution as it were.

If you use it as the "Shadowfell", that would allow planar travel to be too easy, so it would need to be a special area of the Shadowfell, affected by Athas' issues. Which I'm sure would be easy to do.

Wizards will never publish a Large PC race, because there's no way to balance the racial feature "Affects 150% more creatures with Close Bursts".
Half-Giants should just use the Goliath stats.

they also get hit by more attackers at one time, though

Aandor
hey that's a cool alternate backstory for Athas!

Dausuul
lol yes, 4th ed won't make Dark Sun easy! 4th ed already has rules for heat exhaustion in the DMG, so I'm sure they'll add more, Athas is much worse than most deserts, 60 degrees celcius plus AND the silt?!

PeterWeller
like Dausuul says, sort of, "The first rule of Dark Sun is..there were no novels, no revised boxed set!!!"


other stuff:
Dargonborn could be dray..or they could just be mutants, lizards who've become intelligent etc, who knows, who cares it honeslty doesn't matter unless you wish a specific history for them. You don't always HAVE ot have a backstory for everything, folks

Same with Eladrin (they could be psionic masters, rare births, or they coeem from the Feywild of Athas which is NOT like the normal Feywild! the Defiling has spread into it and boy would they be PO'd)

*sings*
Fun, fun, fun! In the sun, sun, sun!!
Defilers have burnt the trees to ash,
And wearing loincloths has given me a rash!
Templars enslave PCs who are too brash
Escape attempts to evade the overseer's lash!
Halfling's are feral little sods who want to eat my a**!
Fun, fun, fun! In the sun, sun, sun!!

 

[catastrophic]

I just thought of a cool 4e/Darksun synergy. Suppose in the ancient past of Athas, back when it was still a cool green world with gods, the head of the pantheon was a sun god. And he did the normal sort of good god thing and imbued some of his worshippers with some of his divine essence (IE Made them aasimars) to lead his people.

Unfortunately he was also the same nameless sun god whom Asmodeus slew. On Athas the sun turned black and hostile. The warping of his heaven into the 9 hells also warped the very flesh and blood of his aasimar into tieflings. And no lesser god of his pantheon has answered a prayer on Athas since that black and terrible day, a day which twisted the nature of magic itself...

The dark sun could be the nine hells.

 

[Rechan]

Unfortunately he was also the same nameless sun god whom Asmodeus slew. On Athas the sun turned black and hostile. The warping of his heaven into the 9 hells

Not only that, but the SUN ITSELF is the 9 Hells. So that the very painful heat bleeding from the Black Sun of Betrayal is the heat of Hell itself.

Edit: Damnit, ninja'd.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm a little bit confused onto why so many people get these ideas in their heads about that line from the designers that they're not messing with the flavor of the setting unless they have to. 4e ITSELF has a different design philosophy. and that overrides everything that dark sun could be. 4e, (and 3e was as well) Heroic fantasy, 24/7. You won't be worrying about heat, thirst, starvation, or being slaves, any more than you would be in regular D&D. because those are the guys who you SAVE from being so pathetic in the universe.

On this, I'm willing to give the 4e team the benefit of the doubt. These guys are generally pretty good at designing what they set out to design, and if they're making the land itself a challenge -- something that was mentioned in the interview -- I believe them.

Most of the issues come in, for me, when they don't set out with a compatible philosophy for my playstyle in the first place. Frex, they have great minis combat rules, but I am not a huge fan of minis combat, so the disconnect is more fundamental than that.

Here, so far, they seem to be in agreement with the way I would want to play Dark Sun. I'm optimistic, but I am on the lookout for possible goofball moves (probably too much so, honestly ).

I don't think Dark Sun is entirely incompatible with "heroic," though I do think heroic takes on a different meaning in DS than in many other settings: a more mercenary, practical, "some things need to be done," kind of heroism.