The "Bubble"

[FireLance]

There are also more than a few powers which allow you to shift 1 or 2 squares before attacking, you can presume there is a reason for those.

Are those powers which add maneuverability during an attack... there because there are ways to restrict somebodies ability to move in to the proper reach? If we allow an attack while moving that isnt a charge... are we stepping on powers toes.

There are other reasons to use such powers instead of charging: for example, a striker could move and attack, and then use his move action to move or shift out of the target's melee reach. This works best when the target is already in melee with a defender, of course. You can't do this with a charge because you can't take any actions after charging unless you spend an action point.

 

[FireLance]

That is a restriction for players way more then monsters and not even all players. Plus, there are 67 powers for PC's that have the phrase "you can use this power in place of a melee basic attack". In my opinion that is not very restrictive. At least not restrictive enough to be considered a penalty.

Agreed, some monsters only have melee basic attacks, and to them, it is not much of a penalty. However, it does restrict the options of any character who has at-will, encounter and daily abilities that cannot be used as melee basic attacks. Even if it is possible to build a character whose abilities all can be used as melee basic attacks, the restriction simply shifts from occurring at the table to character creation and advancement.

 

[Garthanos]

There are other reasons to use such powers instead of charging: for example, a striker could move and attack, and then use his move action to move or shift out of the target's melee reach. This works best when the target is already in melee with a defender, of course. You can't do this with a charge because you can't take any actions after charging unless you spend an action point.

So your lunge house rule needs to end the turn after the lunge? or better be a change to the wording of a charge allowing it to be performed but with a penalty if insufficient distance is available.

 

[FireLance]

So your lunge house rule needs to end the turn after the lunge? or better be a change to the wording of a charge allowing it to be performed but with a penalty if insufficient distance is available.

Yes, my intention was for characters to end their turns after a lunge, just as they do for a charge. I guess I was too focused on highlighting the differences from charge and not the key similarity to charge. Re-wording charge would also work.

 

[Garthanos]

Yes, my intention was for characters to end their turns after a lunge, just as they do for a charge. I guess I was too focused on highlighting the differences from charge and not the key similarity to charge. Re-wording charge would also work.

My point was maybe ... just to be sensitive about stealing from powers when you add standard moves... or change them. Other than that it is pretty much something I would have ruled exactly that way on the fly and moved on without looking back ;-)... I might have given a -1 on attack even to maintain some more of the flavor... but might not.

 

[Stuntman]

Assuming that multiple opponents solves the problem doesn't cope with two situations very well...

1) Any situation in which another target is past a defender who can make going past with an OA impossible (fighter or warden)

I would say that in this situation, the defender is doing his job properly trying to prevent the target from attacking one of the defender's allies.

2) Any situation in which the players have no other viable target

In my experience, the Ready action works quite well in this situation. You can ready any standard action attack and not just basic attacks.

Cause, again, if you're dazed and 1 square out, you can't switch weapons, you can't ready an attack, you can't charge, you're just well and truly screwed.

Dazed is likely not a condition that can be applied over and over again with ease. It may only last for one turn. Also, if you are dazed and your opponent shifts back, you may only end up losing only one turn's worth of actions. The next turn, your opponent has to move/shift adjacent to you to make the attack and end its turn adjacent to you. When your turn comes around, even if you are still dazed, you get to make a standard action attack.

 

[Stuntman]

Thanks for all the replies. A lot of interesting ideas on both sides of the issue.
I am still looking for an answer as to the designer's intent. All of the suggestions are "after the fact" that accept the Bubble as part of the game and move on from there. I am wondering if the Bubble was intended. If yes, then my group sees no reason to house rule it. If it wasn't intended and happens to be something that fell through the cracks without realization then we will house rule it.

As others have said, it is unlikely any members here will be able to show whether or not the bubble was intended. If you do make house rules to deal with the perceived shortcomings regarding the bubble, it is also possible that the house rules create other side effects that the designers did not intend such as the nerfing of prone. If you think this effect is something that fell through the cracks, trying to patch it up may cause something else to fall through the cracks.

In any case, the bubble effect does not universally screw over every creature in every situation. Some creatures and characters can deal with the bubble or make it difficult or undesirable to do. Groups of creatures or parties can minimise the effects with good tactics or power selection. There have already been a number of suggestions on how to deal with this situation.

In any case, if you are knocked prone, should there be some disadvantage? If you can just get up and counter attack the attacker back, what's the point of knocking prone? It's just like dealing damage and then taking damage. I might as well use a power that just deals more damage instead of knocking prone.

From a tactical point of view, I don't think this bubble effect is really overpowered by any means. There are other tactics that I've seen that limit the options of a target more so than this. If you want to nerf prone, how much farther are going to go? Are you going to nerf the immobolised condition as well? You can pretty much do the same tactic against an immobolised opponent.

 

[FireLance]

In any case, if you are knocked prone, should there be some disadvantage? If you can just get up and counter attack the attacker back, what's the point of knocking prone? It's just like dealing damage and then taking damage. I might as well use a power that just deals more damage instead of knocking prone.

How potent is the condition "the only melee attack that the target can make is a melee basic attack"? Against non-adjacent opponents, that is the effect of prone on most creatures.

 

[keterys]

I would say that in this situation, the defender is doing his job properly trying to prevent the target from attacking one of the defender's allies.

I would agree... if the target had any way to actually attack the defender. It seems unlikely that it's intended that the defender taking a step back is preferable to standing there or taking 2 steps for completely locking down an enemy

In my experience, the Ready action works quite well in this situation. You can ready any standard action attack and not just basic attacks.

Can't ready while dazed... and readying an action after standing from prone is a pretty easy way to have a very suboptimal action.

Dazed is likely not a condition that can be applied over and over again with ease.

It is if the target _or_ attacker is a solo, or many elites.

When your turn comes around, even if you are still dazed, you get to make a standard action attack.

Not with reach, or ranged attacks... and it's pretty likely the first round you do something crazy like move up to the defender, so that could be an easy 2 rounds of stun.

Or maybe it's a desirable tactical loophole. Depends on how you play.

 

[Ryujin]

Dazed is likely not a condition that can be applied over and over again with ease. It may only last for one turn. Also, if you are dazed and your opponent shifts back, you may only end up losing only one turn's worth of actions. The next turn, your opponent has to move/shift adjacent to you to make the attack and end its turn adjacent to you. When your turn comes around, even if you are still dazed, you get to make a standard action attack.

I've spent the better part of three entire encounters dazed in the last 4 levels.