PDFS--Of the WotC Court Case

[Crothian]

It doesn't matter if it causes a lost sale or not, the pirate has something he should not. Something someone worked hard on and deserves to get paid for for you to have.

 

[N0Man]

It doesn't matter if it causes a lost sale or not, the pirate has something he should not. Something someone worked hard on and deserves to get paid for for you to have.

In some cases, what you say is valid. It may not be fair, and it is infringement, but it's not a loss, which absolutely the only argument I'm trying to make. I'm not arguing the ethics of pirating, merely arguing that equating downloads to lost sales is faulty presumptuous thinking.

However, you still are ignoring the several scenarios mentioned where they *do* get paid for the work, and not only is there not a loss, there is an actual gain for them.

I realize that sharing personal experience has limited value, however I will also mention that of all the players I've shared a gaming table with since 4E, more than half of them don't buy or pirate the books, they just mooch ganders at all my books.

I've played with 5 Players who have had pirated digital copies of the books:

• 3 out of 5 of them also bought the books, but had a digital version for ease of use (because 4E indices suck, and "Find..." doesn't). 2 out of those 3 probably wouldn't have bought the hardcopies if they hadn't of checked out the PDF first.
• 1 out of the 5 was unemployed and couldn't afford to buy the book anyway, and was lukewarm and unsure about 4E.
• The final person of these 5 pirates had the money to buy at least a couple books, but pirated all of them (which I don't approve of, but even in this case, he only caused an actual loss on a fraction of those).

As I said, this is strictly my personal experience and by no means necessarily indicative of the erst of the world, and is an extremely small sample size. In my games, it's been pretty much a break even between sales that were lost due to piracy and sales that were unaffected or made by piracy.

I should also mention, that I've considered many times of banning pirated copies of materials at my games, unless they have a legit copy too.

 

[Crothian]

However, you still are ignoring the several scenarios mentioned where they *do* get paid for the work, and not only is there not a loss, there is an actual gain for them.

I am ignoring this because it doesn't matter. Only the publisher can decide if he wants to essentially give away a preview version of his book to generate sales. I imagine publishers would rather you not pirate their books then to get whatever sales they get from people pirating and then buying their books.

This is a faulty example, I know, but its the best I can think of. It's a bit like someone stealing a DVD from Best Buy go home and watch it and then the next day go into Best Buy and pay for the DVD they stole.

 

[Dannager]

I should also mention, that I've considered many times of banning pirated copies of materials at my games, unless they have a legit copy too.

Huh, this is an interesting idea. As DM, you have a certain amount of authority to control what is and isn't allowed, and leveraging that authority to prevent harmful piracy is compelling.

I wonder if this idea would catch on with DMs - it keeps your game on the moral up-and-up as well as helping the industry out.

 

[Simon Atavax]

It's not slander if it's true (and it would be libel anyway, not slander).

You gained added value from the material you pirated. You said as much yourself. You did not pay WotC for this added value. You stole it from them. You are a thief and without honour.

And since he is "without honor," he should lose his paladin status, right?

(rolls eyes)

Dude, we're not playing D&D here. This is a real-life discussion involving complex issues and real living, human beings. Tone down the ridiculous, self-righteous rhetoric.

 

[Simon Atavax]

Huh, this is an interesting idea. As DM, you have a certain amount of authority to control what is and isn't allowed, and leveraging that authority to prevent harmful piracy is compelling.

I wonder if this idea would catch on with DMs - it keeps your game on the moral up-and-up as well as helping the industry out.

The day a DM tells me he's running a "moral" game is the day I ask, "So everyone in your group has to abstain from drinking, smoking, and premarital sex?"

Then I'll laugh and find another group.

 

[Crothian]

Huh, this is an interesting idea. As DM, you have a certain amount of authority to control what is and isn't allowed, and leveraging that authority to prevent harmful piracy is compelling.

I wonder if this idea would catch on with DMs - it keeps your game on the moral up-and-up as well as helping the industry out.

Unless your players are bringing pirated material to the table or just admitting it openly I think it would be hard to enforce. They use the books at home like most players I know do and bring just their character to the table. When asked if they own Martial Power or whatever the character is built from they would just say yes. I guess you could require them to bring their books to every session to prove they own them but that seems like a pain.

 

[Simon Atavax]

Fair enough guys - I'll step out of this now.

Hurrah!

 

[kenmarable]

It doesn't matter if it causes a lost sale or not, the pirate has something he should not. Something someone worked hard on and deserves to get paid for for you to have.

That's really the crux of my problem with digital piracy.

From a publisher standpoint, it's extremely complex of whether to fight piracy or not, and to what extent - or whether to offer your products digitally for free to encourage physical sales or other income strategies, etc. etc.

But from a customer standpoint, it's really simple for me. Downloading an illegal book is rude and disrespectful to the creators. Sure I can talk for hours of whether free distribution benefits them or not, but ultimately it's their decision and I was raised to not feel entitled to free copies of things just because they are digital, and that if I want to get something I have to earn it. For my own actions, it's that simple.

But that's how I feel personally, and it's up to each of us to decide where they fall on the ethics of that whole thing.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I should also mention, that I've considered many times of banning pirated copies of materials at my games, unless they have a legit copy too.

How would you prove that they're pirated? There's no way in hell I'm dragging all my books to a game when I can just bring my laptop with my pdfs.

It doesn't matter if it causes a lost sale or not, the pirate has something he should not. Something someone worked hard on and deserves to get paid for for you to have.

In some cases this is true, in some, not. I again call to mind my video game example. I'm primarily a PC gamer, but there's little to no modern day games that I enjoy. If a game comes out, I want to know if it's good or bad before I purchase it, but I have no way of knowing without pirating it - demos are almost nonexistant, the gaming media is a bad joke, and developers are more more often lying about their game and making false "playtests" to showcase it. This is especially aggravating when my budget doesn't allow for buying every game that starts to catch my eye. So my choices are to either gamble my money and hope the game doesn't turn out to be a turd (like most do), or grab a torrent and give it a test whirl before shelling out bucks to the game's producer to own an actual copy.

And keep in mind, I'm not saying piracy is good. I know people in the gaming industry who have been hurt by it.

What I'm saying is, it's not that simple. You can't just say everything is "GOOD OR BAD" or "MORAL AND IMMORAL."

At the risk of quoting from a movie that will possibly get me :|s...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A0GdR2LlKo]YouTube - Donnie Darko; Life Line[/ame]