Understanding Alignment

[delericho]

I don't particularly agree: while it is at a certain level largely an account of historical events, its one that has a goodly degree of Godly interventions. Assuming, arguendo, that Judaism (like other monotheistic faiths) claims that the being they worship is omnibenevolent, the actions directly taken by that being must perforce be good. What evil is done in his name is the fault of the imperfect tools he chooses to use (a.k.a. Humans).

Agreed. But I'm not going to say any more on that front; this diversion is getting a little 'hot' for me.

 

[Afrodyte]

"Lawful Evil" is perfect for a short description of how "cardboard-character X" behaves, but once characters start having dynamic, complicated personalities, you start to wonder which alignment should be the dominant one, and at what point should you change what's written on the sheet. This is how we get into discussions about what alignment Hitler would have, and other stupidity. (Should people have different alignments at different times of the day, for example? Is a tyrant who is nice to children only Evil when he's at work?)

Precisely, which is why alignment as a system seems fundamentally flawed from the start. It presents a person's ethics in a sort of mathematical way, where good deeds earn "points" while bad deeds take away "points", and the sum total is your moral compass. People are more complex than that; they can be both at the same time - even in contradictory ways. Greedy people can be charitable. The same people running companies that use sweat shop labor to cut prices also donate millions to philanthropic causes every year. There are people who are merciless toward their spouses or children but would never harm an animal. D&D's alignment system doesn't really allow for that kind of complexity, even though the mythological and literary inspirations are filled with flawed heroes who, at certain times, seem more like villains.

For this reason, I'm more of a fan of White Wolf's Virtues and Vices because it more accurately describes tragic flaws and saving graces. Virtues and vices also give people the ability to choose when to apply which ones.

 

[Starfox]

Ehud was called by God to be a champion for the Israelites, and managed to slay the Moabite king and lead the downtrodden Israelites over the Moabite army. The "Call" + the overthrow of an army by former slaves led by the Chosen one sounds very "paladin-y" to me.

I am very glad 4E avoids these complications by not forcing paladins to be Lawful Good - which lets the DM set up his world as he pleases.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I am very glad 4E avoids these complications by not forcing paladins to be Lawful Good - which lets the DM set up his world as he pleases.

Your results may vary. For some of us like myself, that just strips away all feeling of the paladin and turns him into "Fighter who's just extra flashy I guess"

 

[Derren]

Go somewhere, kill everything you find, not because it's morally imperative, but because they are Team Evil and thus killing them is ok, because you are Team Good.

Hard to find? That pretty much describes the entire 20th century.
Just replace Team Evil with Nazis, N.Koreans, Vietncong, Iraqis or Taliban.

 

[Mallus]

For some of us like myself, that just strips away all feeling of the paladin and turns him into "Fighter who's just extra flashy I guess"

What stops you from playing a 4e paladin like a paragon of pre-4e Lawful Goodness?

You could look at it this way, 4e didn't remove the original paladin archetype, it simply added a few new ones that stand alongside (like the archetype-of-one Dragonborn paladin I've been playing for about a year now).

 

[ProfessorCirno]

What stops you from playing a 4e paladin like a paragon of pre-4e Lawful Goodness?

You could look at it this way, 4e didn't remove the original paladin archetype, it simply added a few new ones that stand alongside (like the archetype-of-one Dragonborn paladin I've been playing for about a year now).

Uh, no. By the in game fluff, paladins are now just warriors of their church. Nothing more. The Call is no longer existent. They're just fightan men who have some oils poured on them, and if they stray from their alignment, nothing happens.

They didn't just add more, they completely changed the entire archetype.

Sure, I could houserule it. But houseruling is never a defense for anything.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I am very glad 4E avoids these complications by not forcing paladins to be Lawful Good - which lets the DM set up his world as he pleases.

To be clear, I actually like having Holy Knights for all alignments- "Paladin" being the most common nomenclature for the LG version- which is one reason why I absolutely love Book of the Righteous.

But IMHO, all Holy Knights should have certain things in common.

1) Unlike a Cleric or Druid who may find his or her way into the holy man biz by a number of routes, a Holy Knight should experience "The Call."

2) There should be some kind of Code by which they live- the CN or CE ones, too- even though it may be quite simple. The CE Holy Knight ("Hunter-Killer?") might have a Code by which he must never let a day pass without performing an Evil act, unless he seeks to spread Chaos & confusion.

That could be as simple as confusing foes by performing a rescue of innocents, allaying fears that he may be Evil by performing an act that is, at its surface, Good. If he has any doubt about losing his powers by dealing in that kind of deception, he should put the innocents in jeopardy to start off with...all the better to be in position to be the "hero" who makes the rescue.

3) Failure to abide by the strictures of the Code leads to a loss of power.

I could see, for instance, a CE Holy Knight losing his powers until he Attones if he rescued a bunch of children from a fire (esp. one he set), assuming it was a genuinely altruistic act and not merely a ploy to win the confidence of the people rescued (and their families).

The Divine has a mission, a plan for the Holy Knight PC...and the HK is on a short leash.

 

[Hussar]

Did this ever actually happen in your games?

In every instance of the players going out to attack someone else, to my memory, it's always prefaced with "Those monsters have begun raiding" or "Those bandits are attacking caravans" etc etc.

I've never had players spontaniously decide to attack villages they come across, regardless of the races of said village, and not expect to start hitting those Evil points. You make it sound like that happens all the time.

Really? You've never had PC's go and kill orcs that live in caves? You've never played Keep on the Borderlands?

"Those monsters have begun raiding" is enough justification for eradicating an entire village? And this is "good"? Well, by D&D it sort of is, because, again, we're Team Good, and they're Team Evil.

Uh, no. By the in game fluff, paladins are now just warriors of their church. Nothing more. The Call is no longer existent. They're just fightan men who have some oils poured on them, and if they stray from their alignment, nothing happens.

They didn't just add more, they completely changed the entire archetype.

Sure, I could houserule it. But houseruling is never a defense for anything.

It's funny how, in a thread where the OP calls for people to RTFM, someone would say this. Irony is fun.

Once initiated, the paladin is a paladin forevermore. how justly, honorably or compassionately the paladin wields those powers from that day forward is up to him and paladins who stray too far from the tenets of their faith are punished by other members of the faithful

So, saying that "if they stray from their alignment, nothing happens" is false. Instead of the DM turning you into a fighter if you stray, the DM sends out an ecumenical hit squad to put you on the straight and narrow.

Seems to me the 4e version actually leads to more role play situations. Instead of just heading to the local cleric and getting an Atonement spell, you actually have to deal with the members of your faith and justify your actions or be punished.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Really? You've never had PC's go and kill orcs that live in caves? You've never played Keep on the Borderlands?

"Those monsters have begun raiding" is enough justification for eradicating an entire village? And this is "good"? Well, by D&D it sort of is, because, again, we're Team Good, and they're Team Evil.

Correct, I've never had a party who randomly came across a cave of orcs and then spontaniously decided to butcher them all.

And yes, your second quote is generally justification, in that usually it's not a village but a war camp. Huge difference between the two.

It's funny how, in a thread where the OP calls for people to RTFM, someone would say this. Irony is fun.

Irony IS fun! Unfortunately, I'm not being ironic. Your quote from the PHB has nothing to do with my commentary that paladins no longer have the Call, and that they're no longer associated completely with the alignment.

So, saying that "if they stray from their alignment, nothing happens" is false. Instead of the DM turning you into a fighter if you stray, the DM sends out an ecumenical hit squad to put you on the straight and narrow.

Seems to me the 4e version actually leads to more role play situations. Instead of just heading to the local cleric and getting an Atonement spell, you actually have to deal with the members of your faith and justify your actions or be punished.

Once again, RTFM. Atonement isn't "Oh hey mr cleric, could you heal my paladin powers real quick?" "Oh sure thing! ZAP!"

Many casters first assign a subject of this sort a quest (see geas/quest) or similar penance to determine whether the creature is truly contrite before casting the atonement spell on its behalf.

Now, I grant you this - your DM could allow the Mr Cleric scenario. But I've yet to see that, either. Maybe those clerics hang out with the groups of genocidal adventurers who just randomly massacre innocent villages, and have no issues with throwing away 500 exp, and doesn't care about roleplaying whatsoever.




I'm not saying that the 4e paladins is bad. I'm saying that it's different. Which is exactly what the damn paladin advertised himself as.