Standard DM behavior?

[Markn]

I've skipped a lot of the posts in this thread since they centre on magic items.

As a DM who has played a LOT of campaigns with rotating DMs, the issue is this: The DMs have different play styles and when they clash it doesn't work.

Co-DMing can be a lot of fun, but its a lot of work. First, the DMs have to agree on the style for the campaign - this includes things like magic item acquisition, what happens to DM PCs when they DM, and most importantly the rules. If one runs the rules massivley differently than the other, this will not work! Second, the DMs have to regularly communicate storylines and plans to make a cohesive picture for the players - this can be used as a sort of troubleshooting technique before the event happens as the other DM can flag potential issues and they can be discussed. Third - The most important rule and I believe the DMG2 speaks about this - Never negate something someone else has created. If DM1 creates a city with powerful elves, DM2 should not destroy that city unless given permission by DM1. Always add to someone elses creation, never subtract.

I'm going to describe a bit about my current campaign to give you an idea of how successful co-DMing can be...

The campaign I currently co-DM introduced a mysterious villain whom they spoke with but never saw in the first adventure. They learned his name was Inajira and the PCs stole a mysterious artifact from him.

After speaking with the DM who was working on the next adventure, he wanted to tell a story where the PCs worked for a ruler that seemed benevolent and good but as things progressed it became obvious he was evil and would have to be taken down. This leader was introduced as Fenwiir Arijani.

Through our discussion we determined the villain that the PCs stole the item from (and who warned them they would see him again) was that leader of a nearby nation. The gist of the story was that the PCs town was threatened by a superior army and the PCs had to seek allies to protect their home. So it made sense to make allies of a nearby kingdom. They also had this powerful artifact that they needed researched since it was beyond their means. So, they went to the nearby kingdom and sought help.

Over the course of the campaign, they were required to help this leader consolidate his power by bringing others into his fold and killing bandits and such so that he had men to spare for their town. Now, on 16th level after the PCs have slowly been getting more and more warning signs that something is amiss, the PCs confronted him and discovered he is a Raksasha. Being that he was a Raksasha was bad enough. They had to take him down.

Now since we were co-DMing we were able to work on the story and give plenty of clues as to who Fenwiir was throughout the campaign but the PCs missed most of the double meanings until the end.

The payoff came during the battle to take down the Raksasha. Prior to the fight, we discussed a coat of arms that had the name of Arijani with an arrow pointing left just above his name. Halfway through the fight, one of the players recognized the signifigance of the arrow and read the name backwards which was Inajira. They then realized the stole the artifact from this guy and gave it right back to him and they have been his pawns ever since.

It was fantastic and these are the types of things that Co-DMing can pull off if done right!

 

[S'mon]

The GM may be a control freak, but it's perfectly normal for the GM to at least supervise the purchase of magic items, perhaps by having it done in-game, or by giving out approved white lists. The 4e PHB mentions that some GMs don't allow item purchase at all, so that if you want something, you need to make it yourself.

 

[Obryn]

I'll fork this one. It's a good topic.

 

[delericho]

Sure, but it sounds to me like the players just assumed that they could spend money on anything in any book anywhere at any time.

Maybe. I didn't get that impression from the OP, but I might be mistaken.

Let's put it this way- is it unreasonable for the dm to say, "No, you can't buy magic items while you're in a dungeon"?

Is it unreasonable to say, "No, there aren't any magic items for sale in a town of 100 people"?

No to both. In fact, it's not unreasonable for the DM to say simply "no, you can't buy magic items, period", although it would be fairly unusual.

Now, if the dm hasn't said this, does it make it reasonable for a pc to assume that he can buy magic items in a dungeon? A village? Where's the line, and who decides?

The DM, although the "Say Yes" advice in the DMG strongly leans towards allowing the PCs to buy what they want in any settlement. My opinion of that advice is... less than complimentary, but there it is.

Well, the line is drawn somewhere based on playstyle, and the dm is the one that draws it. So if the discussion hasn't happened, the pcs shouldn't assume that they know where it is. At least, not without asking the dm.

Agreed. My impression had been that the DMs had been fine with it, right up until they say a plot break, and then they suddenly reversed their position. I may, of course, be wrong.

 

[Cadfan]

Appoint a new DM.

Its not bad that he's banning Adventurer's Vault per se, its the reflexive, defensive way it happened. Like a new girlfriend who only talks about her ex, that's a warning sign. Expect future problems to be handled like this one was- when problems occur, which they will because they do in every game, the DM will refuse to accept responsibility and will instead place blame on the players. Instead of learning how to avoid those problems through better DMing, he'll just restrict player choices and options until the only things that remain are those with which he is completely comfortable.

Its a simple defense mechanism that lets people avoid admitting, even to themselves, that they might be at fault.

Let the guy keep playing with you if you like. After he's got some experience with the game, maybe let him DM again. He won't necessarily be more mature, but he will be less fearful and won't react poorly quite as often.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

*scratches head

how does a situation like this even occur. Why would a magic shop even have everything in it?

*scratches head

It doesn't have to have everything. Dealing in, storing, trading and selling magic items would be more hassle than it's worth even if you didn't try to stock every possible item. Purveyors of magic items trade in residuum. This is why they puchase at 20% of the items value, they buy it to Disenchant it into residuum. Then they use the residuum they have acquired to custom-make new magic items. The 10-40% markup is there to cover the costs of the Disenchant Ritual and to earn a profit. That is what I have pieced together from information in the DMG, YMMV of course.

 

[DarkLord Of DForce]

Well, thanks to everyone who replied - you've all certainly give me a lot to think about!

I guess I need to clarify some points here.

Both these DMs are my friends, there's no antagonism, just some mild debate/disagreement.

When I bought the item, I was in town, not in a dungeon. I agree fully, that if you're out in the wilderness or deep underground, you're not likely to find a"Ye Olde Magic Shoppe"...

We are in Everlund. Fairly large town. Arcane magic shops, Thieves guild, Mage book shops, stuff like that.

I don't think either one are control freaks, but I do think they are both really concerned about the amazing things in the Adventurers Vault. Oh, btw, they did restrict Wondrous and Artifacts from the Vault, from the start of the campaign. They didn't restrict buying other things there though. So I was legal when I bought the headpiece - it was apparently just unexpected for the DM. He asked for my sheet so he could read the item description, so apparently he was not familiar with it.

The parchment was odd, smelled fishy (not sure where that came from) and had invisible writing on it. We took it to an alchemist in town, who via ritual, made the writing on it visible again. It was in an unknown language - but now visible, at which point I brought out my headpiece and was able to read it.

I agree with the majority here - I think at our next session, before we start, we need to go over the basic rules and discuss what everyone can and can not do.

We have an e-mail list going, where we exchange a lot of ideas. I proposed that the DMs set a ruling that players could only buy mods or items that were limited to within X levels of that character. So for example, a level 8 player could only buy mods or items that were level say level 9 or 10 (or just whatever the DM decides). Whatever would be appropriate or *likely* that a level 8 character might have.

For me personally, it makes no sense that a level 8 player, with 5-10k of gold saved up, could not buy a lev1 or 2 armor or weapon, or mod, if they were in a fairly largish town, with multiple magic shops, a Dwarven mine outside of town, etc,...

Thanks again everyone, for all the input!

 

[Oryan77]

I think it's weird that the DMs were both surprised to learn that a PC had the magic item. I guess some groups just say, "if yer in town, you have the money, then pay for whatever you want and we'll assume you went to the market."

I prefer to play it out unless we're in a hurry. And even if the PCs do buy things without us playing it out, I still have them write me a list of what they want so I can approve it. I at least see what a player buys even though I may forget about it. But at least I'm approving it. Lesson learned for these 2 DMs I guess. You need to approve everything if you're letting the PCs shop out of the Adventurer's Sear's Catalog instead of an in-game shop that actually has "limited" inventory.

But I don't have magic item shops in our campaign, so this stuff is never an issue for me. If I've forgotten about a magic item the players obtained in game, and they use it to overcome a challenge in a way that I wasn't expecting, then that makes it even better because the players overcame a challenge in a special way...and that is why I give out magic items!

 

[Neuroglyph]

Without addressing the magic item shop issue again - it sounds to me as if the DM's just need to be a little more organized, so that when they hand off the campaign, there are no issues like the "comprehend languages" item caused.

With 8 players, you're gonna definitely want to crack out some 3x5 cards (old school) or an excel spreadsheet (my preference) and start logging magic items for each character. That spreadsheet could be passed back and forth between the DMs so that they aren't shocked when someone whips out say, a dragon slaying sword, and dices their carefully scripted dragon fight to kibble.

 

[jbear]

It doesn't have to have everything. Dealing in, storing, trading and selling magic items would be more hassle than it's worth even if you didn't try to stock every possible item. Purveyors of magic items trade in residuum. This is why they puchase at 20% of the items value, they buy it to Disenchant it into residuum. Then they use the residuum they have acquired to custom-make new magic items. The 10-40% markup is there to cover the costs of the Disenchant Ritual and to earn a profit. That is what I have pieced together from information in the DMG, YMMV of course.

Are you suggesting, an adventurer walks into the shop, flicks through a catalog, chooses the desired item and then the owner uses the enchant item ritual to whip up the desired item in front of his eyes?

and hence its so run of the mill a PC shouldn't bother even mentioning he's looking for such an item, because its such a given it can be easily and quickly attained? That must be a shop owner of some note, because you can only enchant items of your level or lower... what happens when you start wanting items around 10th level, or 20th... or higher... just not in the shops?

I personally prefer that the acquisition of magic items be a little more rare and special than that. YMMV.

You lost me ont the 10-40% mark up bit. The component cost is the price of the item. So if the shop keeper makes the item, it cost him as much as he's selling it for in Residuum. Unless you're imposing a further 10-40% penalty on top of the listed price, which I'm fairly sure is not RAW. Or do shopkeeper have access to a special shopkeeper guild version of the ritual that makes the creation process cheaper, and hence economically viable.

Anyway, the shop is only one facet of the issue.