Third Party: If So, Then What?

[catsclaw227]

I'd really like to have a sandbox style adventure/small setting like "Vault of Larin Karr" for 4E.

Oooo. That would be nice.

But, I imagine for the masses, it would have to come with some electronic doodads to take it over the top. Like a Monster Builder export of the custom monsters or digital maps at 1" scale.

 

[Obryn]

We've heard several reports that 4e third party products are underselling Pathfinder products for some publishers.

Yep, and a big part of that is that Pathfinder basically is a third-party product. I mean, what percentage of Pathfinder players were aware of Paizo beforehand and buy things from RPGNow? I'd wager it's a good number.

We also know 4e, overall, seems to be fairly healthy, if not a complete runaway hit.

driveby troll fail
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This should give you pause. Ordinarily, we would expect that the game with more sales would have more customers buying 3PP products
....
If all it takes is a great product, where is Midnight? When did the new Krynn ever look like it was going to take off?

Er, I have no idea where the new great setting is. That's kind of my point - IMO, it's one of the few 3pp products that would sell. Nobody can buy it if nobody is selling it. The invisible hand doesn't write gaming books.

Of course.
And I'd wager that a company could overcome ALL of that and still probably flop trying to sell 3PP line for 4E.

Maybe and maybe not.

My contention is that a main reason 3pp products aren't selling for 4e is because they're the wrong products, and they're either not marketed at all, or only marketed to forum-going gamers. 4e players aware of the 3pp world don't want third-party classes and feats.

It very well may be that there's no right product, in which case I'll be proven wrong. But until we actually see a 4e 3pp setting that's of high quality, different from what WotC's providing, marketed to the right people, and compelling enough to use, I'll stand my ground.

-O

 

[ggroy]

It very well may be that there's no right product, in which case I'll be proven wrong.

If this indeed turns out to be the case, I wonder if this would be considered "mission accomplished" by WotC in regard to the 4E GSL as planned.

I guess it wouldn't be too surprising if their intentions all along was to have the 3PPs mainly producing adventure modules, while they have almost a complete monopoly on the crunch (especially player specific crunch). This sounds a bit like the early TSR days, with 3PPs like Judges Guild.

 

[Obryn]

I guess it wouldn't be too surprising if their intentions all along was to have the 3PPs mainly producing adventure modules, while they have almost a complete monopoly on the crunch (especially player specific crunch).

I had no use for generic player-oriented 3pp crunch under 3e, either. This is par for the course for me. The only player-oriented crunch I used was for specific (and interesting) settings.

One of the keys to making it work right, IMO, would be providing copyable/printable power cards for any new class's complete 30 levels. It would take a few extra pages, but IMO it would go a long way to persuade players to cut the Character Builder apron strings.

-O

 

[pawsplay]

Er, I have no idea where the new great setting is. That's kind of my point - IMO, it's one of the few 3pp products that would sell. Nobody can buy it if nobody is selling it. The invisible hand doesn't write gaming books.

Your argument is that some as-yet-unwritten 3PP setting for 4e can succeed where some of the best-written 3PP settings written by respected developers have generally not. On what exactly are you basing this supposition?

...4e players aware of the 3pp world don't want third-party classes and feats.

And how do you write a setting book worth having without classes and feats?

 

[ggroy]

And how do you write a setting book worth having without classes and feats?

A crappy 5th rate clone of Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Golarion, Greyhawk, Mystara, etc ...?

 

[pawsplay]

A crappy 5th rate clone of Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Golarion, Greyhawk, Mystara, etc ...?

You melt me when you say it that way.

 

[Obryn]

Your argument is that some as-yet-unwritten 3PP setting for 4e can succeed where some of the best-written 3PP settings written by respected developers have generally not. On what exactly are you basing this supposition?

No, I am saying that it is what I would buy and have bought in the past, and that there is zero evidence it would be a massive failure. I believe it would succeed because it would be offering 4e players something that WotC itself is not offering at this time. (As opposed to setting-generic crunch, which has been the main non-adventure portion of 3pp releases for 4e, and which WotC basically owns right now.)

And how do you write a setting book worth having without classes and feats?

I perhaps should have repeated "generic" in that sentence, so I'll just point you to a few other posts in this thread so you have some context.

As I said way back in my own posts, I am great with new character crunch if it's tied into a new and unique setting. While the Character Builder is an incredible tool, I'd be willing to forego it with the right mix of fluff and crunch in a brilliant setting.

The only player-oriented crunch I used was for specific (and interesting) settings.

One of the keys to making it work right, IMO, would be providing copyable/printable power cards for any new class's complete 30 levels. It would take a few extra pages, but IMO it would go a long way to persuade players to cut the Character Builder apron strings.

-O

 

[ggroy]

You melt me when you say it that way.

Joking aside.

Offhand, I can't think of many viable settings if non-DDI 3PP crunch is strictly forbidden.

 

[ggroy]

No, I am saying that it is what I would buy and have bought in the past, and that there is zero evidence it would be a massive failure. I believe it would succeed because it would be offering 4e players something that WotC itself is not offering at this time.

If a 4E Arcana Evolved was offered by Malhavoc (or somebody else approved by Monte Cook) as a patronage project where one pays upfront, would you personally sign up?