attacking without attacking

How about simply agreeing to disagree?

I'm perfectly fine with agreeing to disagree. I thought it was rather obviously implied when I said:
When another DM runs a game, I abide by his ruling even if I think it is wrong.

You are free to run your campaign however you like. For the record, I agree to disagree with you.

However, if someone posts an (IMO) incorrect interpretation of a rule in the rules forum, then (assuming I feel like getting involved in the first place) I'll attempt to refute his stance by stating my own interpretation, offering whatever evidence I have to support my claim.

I'm pretty sure that's how this rules forum thing works, anyway... ;)
 

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And of course every time I post my opinion on the internet, naturally everyone is overwhelmed by my brilliant logic and impeccable references, and immediately comes around to my point of view. That's how the internet works, isn't it? ;)
 

And of course every time I post my opinion on the internet, naturally everyone is overwhelmed by my brilliant logic and impeccable references, and immediately comes around to my point of view. That's how the internet works, isn't it? ;)

Nah, you're probably just that awesome! ;)
 

And of course every time I post my opinion on the internet, naturally everyone is overwhelmed by my brilliant logic and impeccable references, and immediately comes around to my point of view. That's how the internet works, isn't it? ;)

Well you do wrap your opinions in nice poetry alot perhaps we are all hypnotised... ;-)
 

I think you're using a rather liberal interpretation of that part. It refers to the power's effect (as in what happens when you use a power in question), not an effect line in a power. The example given shows what you're saying to be false (it talks about not letting a warlord power buff an entire army, as it is only intended to buff a party).
As I mentioned before, the idea behind the entire paragraph is "Despite what the rules say, don't let players get benefits from powers when used outside of a 'normal' combat". It basically says, don't let them heal by hitting a rat despite the fact that it is legal in the rules, because a rat isn't a threat. Don't let a power affect 100 people despite the fact that the rules allow them to, because all the powers were written assuming a group of 4-6 players against a group of similar level enemies.

It may not say it in as many words, but I think a similar philosophy applies to powers that have an affect and are meant to be used in combat (obviously....they wouldn't have attack, damage and target lines if they weren't).

You don't find the slightest bit of irony in the fact that you are looking in a paragraph that says "Don't always follow the rules to the letter when it's clear there are times they shouldn't apply exactly as written" and saying "It mentions effects that happens on a hit, but fails to mention effect lines....we must follow the paragraph exactly as written"?

And then in the same post point at the rules for targeting empty squares in order to find invisible enemies and say "It says we can target empty squares. We must follow those rules exactly as written."

Except that page 272 clearly states that targeting a square is legal.
A rat is a legal creature. You can clearly target it. Clearly you should get benefit for hitting it. Except the section that says not to give benefits out in situations they weren't designed for(which it gives 2 examples of: Hit effects and affecting too many creatures).

I'm wondering why preventing people from using powers that have an effect on hit was considered abusive enough to write a section on it but powers that have an effect line are not abusive? I mean, why does the ability to heal someone on hit as an encounter power need to be restricted while another power that heals people as an effect on top of the attack not need to be restricted somehow?

Regardless, Firelance has already demonstrated that this is false. Nowhere do the rules say that you need a target to use a power, and every indication is that you don't.
Hey, I can play this game too.

I have already demonstrated that this is true. Nowhere do the rules say that you don't need a target to use a power, and every indication is that you do.

Considering there is about as much evidence one way as there is another. I haven't seen any indication that you don't. I think the entire fact that there IS a target line, a section in the DMG saying that it can't just be any legal target(that the DM should reserve the right to say NO, not THAT target), and another section saying that you can only target objects with powers that target creatures with the DM's permission is extremely strong evidence that you need a target.

FireLance said:
In fact, the description of "Effect" on page 219 of PH2 states:

Anything that appears in an "Effect" entry occurs when you use the power, whether or not you hit with it, if it is an attack power.
That's correctly. If you hit or miss with the power, the effect goes off. If you don't attack at all because there is no target, then you neither hit nor not hit with it. So no effect happens.

My main argument against the effect line to happen with no legal target is that the goal of 4e was to "silo" in combat powers away from out of combat powers. They did this by dividing powers into Attack and Utility.

A bunch of the articles before 4e come out explain that the goal was to prevent players from ever having to make a choice between in combat utility and out of combat utility. They didn't want someone to have to decide between, say, Disguise Self and Magic Missile.

If you allow people to use Attack Powers when you are not in a legitimate combat, then you are once again forcing people to choose. There is a difference in utility between a power that does 2[w] damage and then lets you teleport 5 squares only in combat and one that does the same thing but also lets you teleport 5 out of combat.

Likewise, there is a difference between a 2[w] with an effect of all enemies adjacent to you grant combat advantage and a 2[w] with the effect of teleport 5 squares if you allow the effect line to work out of combat. When you choose between the two powers, you are now forced to choose between in combat and out of combat utility. Is the ability to have enemies grant combat advantage to you while in combat equal to the ability to have tactical movement in combat AND teleport essentially at will outside of combat? The same thing happens when one power has an hit effect while another has an effect. You can't use one outside of combat, you can use the other.

I just think it's unfair to make people choose. It's especially unfair to tell one player: "Sorry, all of you powers have on hit effects or effects which don't matter out of combat. When you are out of combat, your options are limited to your utility powers. You can choose to do one of those 3 things there. But, lucky you, all of your powers have effect lines. You get to choose from 6 different things to do outside of combat."
 


I'm a bit busy atm, so I can't respond point for point, but tell me this...

At least one or two people who disagree with my POV on effects have said that they'd allow an effect from an AoE to be used outside of combat. Given that, why is it reasonable to allow "utility" for AoE effects, but not melee or ranged effects?

I consider the combat/utility divide to be largely illusory. It isn't that it is a bad idea (even if you take all non-combat utilities, you'll be effective nonetheless thanks to the silo method), but rather that there are a plethora of utility powers that have virtually no application outside of combat (Shield of Faith, for example). Since there are a bevy of "attack"-utility powers, I don't see an issue with allowing a few "utility"-attack powers.

In all fairness, I encourage stunting with attack powers. (For example, a spider-themed character once wanted to use a druid power, that creates difficult terrain but had been reflavored as a web, to bridge a gap she couldn't jump. I set an appropriate DC for her attack roll and she was able to create a bridge to cross the gap.) So I may default allow to allowing more utility from attack powers than a typical DM.
 
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I'm a bit busy atm, so I can't respond point for point, but tell me this...

At least one or two people who disagree with my POV on effects have said that they'd allow an effect from an AoE to be used outside of combat. Given that, why is it reasonable to allow "utility" for AoE effects, but not melee or ranged effects?

It's not Area/Close vs Ranged/Melee. It's a matter of the Target line.

Because you still make the attack with an AoE against all legal targets. The Area attack itself tells you 'All Creatures in Area' or what have you.

The thing is, you can have 'All creatures' describe zero creatures successfully and it does not fail. However, if the target line says 'One creature' then you cannot use it on zero creatures, for the exact same reason you cannot use an attack that says 'Two creatures' on only one creature. Attacks that allow you to do less -say- less. 'One or Two creatures' or 'one, two, or three creatures.'

Some close powers also use the 'One creature in burst' template and those follow the same rule.

All creatures -can- be zero. One creature -cannot be zero-.

I consider the combat/utility divide to be largely illusory. It isn't that it is a bad idea (even if you take all non-combat utilities, you'll be effective nonetheless thanks to the silo method), but rather that there are a plethora of utility powers that have virtually no application outside of combat (Shield of Faith, for example). Since there are a bevy of utility-"attack" powers, I don't see an issue with allowing a few "utility"-attack powers.

In all fairness, I encourage stunting with attack powers. (For example, a spider-themed character once wanted to use a druid power, that creates difficult terrain but had been reflavored as a web, to bridge a gap she couldn't jump. I set an appropriate DC for her attack roll and she was able to create a bridge to cross the gap.) So I may default allow to allowing more utility from attack powers than a typical DM.

There is nothing wrong with allowing some utility from attack powers outside the rulesset. I actually agree with you that it is okay to do this. Please don't take the rules-stance as any attack against that. But what the rules say and what you are comfortable allowing are two different ideas. And having the -DM- in charge of the rules allows you to take control should a rules lawyer try to use this to finaggle his way into a power-game benefit.
 

You are caught up on the effect aspect, however you are ignoring one -simple- fact. You require the target to be satisfied to resolve the power in the first place. No target, no power You've already assumed you can use the power, but you -can't- because the -target- line occurs -before the effect- and therefore -must be satisfied first.- Once you've satisfied enough of the power to start resolving it, the rest can go as it comes, but you never get to the -effect- part because you've stopped at -target- which precludes any resolution to the power at all.

I'm a dazed Rogue with a rapier.

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Can I use Deft Strike to attack the orc?

-Hyp.
 

Responding to the points out of order for better flow.

That's correctly. If you hit or miss with the power, the effect goes off. If you don't attack at all because there is no target, then you neither hit nor not hit with it. So no effect happens.
Except that the rules don't say that the effect occurs when you hit or miss with the power. The rules say that the effect occurs when you use the power, whether or not you hit with it. If you don't attack anything, it's still not a hit. :) To my mind, the emphasis on hitting is to distinguish "Effect" entries from "Hit" entries: you get the benefit of "Hit" entries only when you hit a legitimate target, whereas you get the benefit of "Effect" entries simply by using the power.
I'm wondering why preventing people from using powers that have an effect on hit was considered abusive enough to write a section on it but powers that have an effect line are not abusive? I mean, why does the ability to heal someone on hit as an encounter power need to be restricted while another power that heals people as an effect on top of the attack not need to be restricted somehow?
To me, it's a matter of balance. "Effect" benefits are usually less useful than "Hit" benefits. Powers with Effects are thus less risky since they don't depend on you hitting, but have a lower payoff. "Hit" entries need to be specially called out to prevent players from enjoying them too easily or in conditions of minimal risk. "Effect" entries can already be enjoyed easily and without risk. So, I would generally have no problems with allowing the players to take advantage of Effects without needing to make an attack roll (individual powers may be problematic, but that's a problem with the individual power).
My main argument against the effect line to happen with no legal target is that the goal of 4e was to "silo" in combat powers away from out of combat powers. They did this by dividing powers into Attack and Utility.

A bunch of the articles before 4e come out explain that the goal was to prevent players from ever having to make a choice between in combat utility and out of combat utility. They didn't want someone to have to decide between, say, Disguise Self and Magic Missile.
I'd say that the distinction between Attack power and Utility power is not very stark since many Utility powers can be used in combat. So, I would not have a problem if a small number of Attack powers have out-of-combat applications. I think the key philosophy behind that design decision was to ensure that all characters had at least some Attack powers, not to ensure that all characters had fixed proportions of combat and out-of-combat abilities (after all, they could select Utility powers that have mostly combat applications).
If you allow people to use Attack Powers when you are not in a legitimate combat, then you are once again forcing people to choose. There is a difference in utility between a power that does 2[w] damage and then lets you teleport 5 squares only in combat and one that does the same thing but also lets you teleport 5 out of combat.

Likewise, there is a difference between a 2[w] with an effect of all enemies adjacent to you grant combat advantage and a 2[w] with the effect of teleport 5 squares if you allow the effect line to work out of combat. When you choose between the two powers, you are now forced to choose between in combat and out of combat utility. Is the ability to have enemies grant combat advantage to you while in combat equal to the ability to have tactical movement in combat AND teleport essentially at will outside of combat? The same thing happens when one power has an hit effect while another has an effect. You can't use one outside of combat, you can use the other.

I just think it's unfair to make people choose. It's especially unfair to tell one player: "Sorry, all of you powers have on hit effects or effects which don't matter out of combat. When you are out of combat, your options are limited to your utility powers. You can choose to do one of those 3 things there. But, lucky you, all of your powers have effect lines. You get to choose from 6 different things to do outside of combat."
And my view is that as long as you can still contribute to both combat and out-of-combat situations, it doesn't really matter if you select Attack powers that can be used in out-of-combat situations, or Utility powers that can be used in combat situations. I think that too much siloing would shift the game too far towards characters that are too homogenous. ;)
 

Incidentally, this discussion has given me some insight into why the 1st-level Paladin daily paladin's judgment might have been worded as follows:
Hit: 3[W] + Strength modifier damage, and one ally within 5 squares of you can spend a healing surge.
Miss: One ally within 5 squares of you can spend a healing surge.​
In this case, your ally gets to spend a healing surge whether you hit or miss, but you still must make an attack roll. Unlike an Effect, you can't get the benefit without attacking.
 

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