attacking without attacking

[FireLance]

Great what is the hypothetical armor class of a square?

DMG1 page 65.

Assuming a 5-foot by 5-foot square is a Medium object, it has AC 5, Reflex 5 and Fortitude 10.

 

[Nichwee]

Great what is the hypothetical armor class of a square?

The same as for attacking a rope holding up a bridge you plan to destroy. i.e. DM's call assuming it is relevent - but if you don't intend to Hit or Miss the square (but simply target it an use an effect) I don't think I'd ask my DM to bother assinging one tbh.

 

[ColdHeart]

Great what is the hypothetical armor class of a square?

It has none. You neither Hit nor Miss. You just Swing.

Edit: This has just made me think of a third use for attacking a square.

Before you stands the tribes best warriors, who ask you why they should trust such a weak group of adventurers as yourself. Wanting to get on their good side, you wish to display your prowess by using your biggest, baddest attack power. You tell your DM you are using UberFu to attack a square in front of the lead barbarian, shift two and attack that square again and then shift a second time and attack one more time. This impressive display of martial prowess should get their attention...

Your DM tells you you go to attack but nothing happens, because you are not targeting a creature...

I can happily shoot a bow or swing a sword with out trying to hit anything... to me that is common sense ;-)

 

[Garthanos]

The same as for attacking a rope holding up a bridge you plan to destroy. i.e. DM's call assuming it is relevent - but if you don't intend to Hit or Miss the square (but simply target it an use an effect) I don't think I'd ask my DM to bother assinging one tbh.

DMG1 page 65.

Assuming a 5-foot by 5-foot square is a Medium object.

So the presumption is just like targetting an apple or any other object ..

A man can be hypnotised into inducing an adrenaline rush... against say an object... or if they are heavily trained in it... they can do it to themselves, under such a rush they can deliver a physical burst attack which is 1.5 x as energetic... without these exceptional elements the attack will be 1x....

Somehow there is a baby in the bath water... attacking air isnt always the same.

 

[Nichwee]

So the presumption is just like targetting an apple or any other object ..

A man can be hypnotised into inducing an adrenaline rush... against say an object... or if they are heavily trained in it... they can do it to themselves, under such a rush they can deliver a physical burst attack which is 1.5 x as energetic... without these exceptional elements the attack will be 1x....

Somehow there is a baby in the bath water... attacking air isnt always the same.

Point 1 : Yes. Attacking a spot on the ground (or a patch of air) is like targetting an apple. You look at it, you aim, you perform your attack, it may or may not hit, it may or may not have any effect.

Point 2 : Huh, not folowing this at all. Why does one need to be hypnotised to swing a sword without a target? I do it every Tuesday. I call it practicing (as I am a member of a Fencing club, well technically I stab with my sword at nothing as an epee is a tip-based weapon not a blade-based one).
I find it hard to believe no DnD character is every going to have practiced his powers out of combat to perfect them - I'm a theorist by profession, but even I would want some practical experience before using an ability in a life-threatening situation.


And lastly I have noticed a cute side effect of all the "Valid Target Needed" arguements, when combined with "Bag-Of-Rats Meaningful Threat" rules. A Lvl 1 Fighter can solo a Lvl 30 character.
Why? Because the Hit effect of doing damage requires a "Meaningful Threat" to work - so no damage is done and the Lvl 1 Fighter is untargetable, unhittable and unbeatable.
Yes, this is codswallop.
I mention it to remind people that common sense does trump rules as written once in a while.
And being able to perform katas out of combat, being able to shoot an arrow into the air, being able to swing a sword without planning to hit anything make sense.
Would you do damage in any of these cases? NO.
Would you have other 'effects' caused by them. YES. It wouldn't be very good practice of your "Fast Moving Attack Power Of Awesome" if you couldn't trigger the Effect to move about and attack again (for example), would it? Effects are stuff that happens as part of/because of using the power, not because of who you use it on (with obvious exceptions when the Effect enhances the Hit type results).

 

[Garthanos]

Point 2 : Huh, not folowing this at all. Why does one need to be hypnotised to swing a sword without a target? I do it every Tuesday.

You are pretending the the target an inconsequential thing is something significant a true enemy something to allow your spirit to tap deeper resources...

I didnt say the hypnosis allowed an attack Im saying the hypnosis... allowed a measureably superior attack something drawing on spirit and hate and deeper energy.... this is something I have seen demonstrated on discovery channel but also is
Corresponding to the teaching in Kendo... you arent supposed to even get a point if your spirit isnt in the attacks.

 

[eamon]

You are pretending the the target an inconsequential thing is something significant a true enemy something to allow your spirit to tap deeper resources...

I'd say that's a decent baseline. I presume fighters can swing their sword, wizards release their magic missiles regardless of the presence or absence of enemies.

There may be exceptions where it doesn't make sense - but if there's going to be a baseline, this would be mine: you can perform any powers regardless of target.

Some powers may have a special interaction with the victim. There's even legitimate-target section in the DMG which describes this, but such powers trigger on a hit. In my (purely fantasized) world, only the rarest of powers works because the wielder thought it would.

I see no fluff reason why the swordmage should not be able to perform his power, even if he can't hit an enemy - he doesn't need to hit, just to go through the motions (i.e. use the power).

The placebo effect in our world is real - but it's generally a subtle thing. A world in which a persons (mis-)perceptions are more influential that the actual situation would be an interesting fantasy - but it's not my choice of D&D setting, and I doubt it's typical for others either.

 

[Nytmare]

I see no fluff reason why the swordmage should not be able to perform his power, even if he can't hit an enemy - he doesn't need to hit, just to go through the motions (i.e. use the power).

I don't know how much of a minority I am, but I'm assuming that there are probably only a handful of people who don't see every power as a necessarily practiced maneuver. My take on it has always been more along the lines of powers being spur of the moment things where the character is taking advantage of a situation, instead of a circus trick that they've spent years practicing and training to perform.

Jackie Chan can beat up 50 guys with a ladder, Errol Flynn can swing across a room on a rope and drop a chandelier on the king's men, and Batman can take out an army of 18 wheelers armed only with his wits and a grappling hook, but you never see the scenes where they're practicing those maneuvers.

 

[Garthanos]

I'd say that's a decent baseline. I presume fighters can swing their sword, wizards release their magic missiles regardless of the presence or absence of enemies.

Those really sound like basic attacks to me... yup... but do me your daily. The passionate energetic circumstance dependent thing that one.
The one that takes digging deep .. yeah go through the motions.. and guess how well it ought to work?

 

[Fanaelialae]

I'd expect a wizard casting Fireball in his off time to be just as successful with it as Magic Missile.