arguing with my DM: The Leadership feat(and a wizard)

[Dzyu]

This just in:

He just apologized. Apparently he's been grumpy because of problems with a girl and took it out on me, so now he actually insists on me taking it, stating that, allowing for translation inaccuracies: "It would actually benefit the group concerning your guildhouse, and one extra cohort would only be more fun. Your fun and enjoyment is after all the most important thing when we play, and watching you guys having fun in the world I've crafted is the whole reason that I enjoy being a DM."

Now THAT'S more like the DM I know! ^^


Now, if you excuse me, I'm off to apologize for being so hard on him, thank the DM for being a big man, and continue the discussion with the group wether I should go for still spell, craft magic arms and armor, split ray or leadership.

Adios, and thanks for the xp, as aboyd so fittingly put it.

 

[Nyeshet]

Why would you want leadership?

You are level 7 with Cha 7. You are an adventurer and so likely move around a lot - or at least do not stay constantly within a single small region (such as a city or earldom). You are a wizard and so likely have a familiar.

Leadership score: 7 -2 (cha) -2 (familiar) -1 (move around a lot) = 2
Cohort available w/ leadership score of 2: one 1st level NPC.

You have already stated your cohort will be an apprentice wizard, so we are talking about 1d4+con hp. I'll be generous and presume a 16 Con and maximum roll on the 1d4: 7 hp. At 7th level any single hit that lands (and it will almost always land upon a 1st level NPC) will likely cause at least 7 hp damage. So if your cohort is ever attacked, he will all but surely die, leading to a -2 to your leadership score - preventing you from getting another cohort for at least one level (maybe two).

If you do not have a familiar, then your cohort is level 2. Presuming maximum roll on both d4s and an unusually high Con of 16 (you do want your NPC cohort to survive), results in a total hp of 11. Again, at level 7, the typical encounter will likely slay your cohort. On the other hand, if this one dies, you can get another (1st level) one - but upon that one's death again you will be unable to gain a cohort for a full level or two.

Unless you have a good Cha and have a few things to your name to build up your leadership score (a castle as a home base, a special power or ability, etc) then it is rarely a good idea to take leadership.

The few times I've seen it worked have involved a cohort bards and cleric who focused on abjuration, healing, and creating potions and wands of curing, etc - and staying out of harm's way. They usually tended to mind the home base while the players adventured, having healing ready for when they returned. If a bard, they might go along for the more diplomatic (rather than dungeon crawling) adventures to aid another with various social checks, tell stories of the great works of the group, etc. If clerics they were usually there after some dream or omen from their deity requesting they aid the person to which they cohorted. Bard and cleric cohort would use their low level magic to give minor but useful boosts; bards would sing during combat; but otherwise they would do their best to stay in the background and out of harm's way.

I also saw a cohort rogue once. They kept their tumble maxed, used aid another to help with trap finding and disarming, helped in flanking, and generally tried to stay out of harms way whenever and however possible (via tumbles, always fighting defensively, expertise, dodge, etc).

Is there a role playing reason to have the apprentice? Has your wizard recently done something likely to spread his name far and wide? Is your apprentice the son of a affair during your youth? Is he a younger childhood friend or the son of a childhood friend who heard stories of you from his father? What is the reason behind the desire for the leadership feat?

 

[Dzyu]

Actually, yes there is. The apprentice is a girl whom Faegan befriended in magic academy. She too is a universalist and one of the few friends Faegan ever had, and a great fan of Faegan's great mind. She also supported Faegan in a big background-story event that happened in magic academy(background story too long and complex to go into detail here...). And as I have stated previously in this thread our group has slain three hill giants who dominated the region demanding tribute and starving the town and the entire region for gold and such. We have also stopped an orc raid, rid the sewers of a nasty troll, and the farmlands from a pesky ogre. We are currently in the process of lifting a curse that a vengeful, dodgy wizard(whom got exiled from the town thanks to us, or rather thanks to him being dodgy) has placed on the town. After this, providing we succeed(we're pretty well along this task already, especially considering that we have gained control of a stone golem and managed to retrieve key items from a sultan efreeti in the plane fo fire, a dolomite in the plane of earth and an aboleth in the plane of water.) the DM has declared that we will get the "great renown" +2 modifier if we succeed with lifting the curse. Faegan isn't aloof or cruel either. He's fair and generous(always been, even before I considered the leadership feat), so that's maybe another +1, depending if the DM thinks I've been generous and proven myself fair enough for it. That gives me an overall +1 bonus. In all likelyhood I'll have at least a lvl 5 cohort, but no followers yet.

We ARE planning to build a power base. A guild house or a stronghold eventually, and that's what the followers are for: filling out and making the place come alive and under our control.

Oh, and keep in mind that this is pathfinder. Wizards get 1D6 hp, and for gaining a level in your favoured class you can also get +1 hp. Also, any PC can choose their favoured class regardless of what race they are, so that +1 HP bonus is yours if you want it. Add on that the toughness feat I've taken with Faegan thanks to him growing tough from abuse by his crippled warrior father who's been disappointed with Faegan not being a good warrior, Faegan has about as much HP as the paladin. I actually had more HP than him on lvl 5 since the paladin then didn't have the toughness feat and he took skill points instead of int for favoured class. The toughness feat adds 3HP +1 HP/HD FYI. so for a wizard with 16 con and the toughness feat it's 1D6+3+1+1 = 6-11 HP per hd.
For the lvl 5 cohort that means an average of 40 hp without toughness, and 48 hp with toughness. He will most likely survive a fireball, and with blur/mirror image, he should be able to stay well if facing melee aswell.

Of course there's a risk involved bringing a cohort 2-3 lvls lower than yourself on missions, but since the paladin has channel divinity healing, and he's now getting a cleric cohort going for max healing, we have plenty of AOE healing available. That, coupled with my buffs/crowd control spells ought to help in keeping the wizard cohort alive.

 

[Oryan77]

You should buy your DM lunch at the next game or something, he deserves it.

 

[Nyeshet]

Okay, I admit to having made a couple mistakes in my prior post: 1) I had too many threads open at once, from both the 3.x and pathfinder message boards, leading to me confusing which message board this thread was on, and 2) I made the probably classic mistake of only reading the first and last page of this thread. As it was 3 pages in total, I presumed I probably would not miss too much, and I was definitely wrong in this assumption.

All that said ...

Great renown? I would likely go as far as +3 or even +4 - especially in the town where you have already aided significantly - and quite publically, I presume - three times (troll, wizard, hill giants). I'm not sure the stone golem would help you - recall, the reason for the -2 if you have a familiar or special mount is due to the view that these will already be helping you in a cohort like fashion. Having a stone golem might actually be worth a -1. But with the +3 in town it would work out to a +2 in any case... .

The backstory actually is quite compelling, and if she is starting at a high enough level to take a couple full on hits and survive that relieves a lot of my concerns. The healing focused cleric cohort will also be a boon. Should I presume the cleric will also be making curative potions &or wands? At fifth level the cleric cohort would certainly qualify for either, and while 1800 gp for a wand of 50 charges of cure light wounds (at level 5) is a bit expensive, the healing of (1d8+5)*50 is certainly useful. If the DM allows the cohort to create as if a lower level (some DMs do), then a wand of cure light wounds (as if level 1) would only cost 375 gp for curing of (1d8+1)*50 hp.

 

[Festivus]

Having run a level 1-20 campaign with three characters who took leadership, I can honestly say that my next campaign there won't be a leadership feat. I think that it really slows the game down too much, and you can simply hand wave helpers back at the office based upon level and charisma, allowing for everyone to have some form of leadership but not on the front lines.

The PCs are supposed to be the stars, the big heroes, not the NPCs tagging along with them.

 

[Dzyu]

No Oryan77. You haven't been listening. It depends on the campaign and rules of play.

If the DM says "everything in pathfinder core is cool, with the exception of these house rules. I might allow things from various 3,5 books, but I'll have to approve anything you might want from those." I'll play by that. So when I later say "I'm considering taking the leadership feat as well" and he replies "What? that's stupid. Your character could never possibly attract a cohort and/or followers. I find the idea ridiculous. The leadership feat should have a charisma requirement.", of course I challenge this. He was presumptuous, claiming to know more about my character than I in a manner.

Maybe "fake, but nice" works for you, but I think it's better being honest and straight forward. After all, the DM bases the creation of his campaign on the feedback of his players to better be able to make it fun for everyone. Limits are fine, but if that's how it's gonna be i want to be prepared for it so I don't get disappointed. Either way, it's not really the part that I don't get a feat, or the fact that he said no to something I was considering, cause both of those has happened before. It's the manner in which it happened. In essence, he brought it upon himself.

I apologized because in response to his behaviour, I, rather than trying to see why he was so brazen, judged him and said some pretty harsh things on msn, calling his (bull's excrement). Like he said, he had some girl-related issues, and I actually knew that he had been a bit depressed(Though not to this extent. I didn't think it was such a big deal.), so I should've been more unterstanding and insightful as to why he was acting like he did. I just didn't think of it in that way.

Anyways, arguing further is pointless because I don't think any of you can possibly know our situation well enough to comment on this level. Any speculation on information given WILL be incomplete because I fail to relay it properly, and frankly, it's already beyond silly, and too personal.
Either way, I don't claim to be flawless, so I will reflect on what has been said.

 

[Dzyu]

Okay, I admit to having made a couple mistakes in my prior post:

That's allright.

I'm not sure the stone golem would help you

Actually, I don't count on getting to keep it. It's way too powerful. I consider it a quest-related key item for helping in the fight vs the high-lvl wizard. This is metagaming though, so for now I'm just enjoying the moment, getting to crush a few encounters with this powerful toy.

The backstory actually is quite compelling,

Thanks, I'm tempted to share it, especially considering the work I put into it. I guess there's a section on this forum appropriate for things like that, so maybe I will post it there one day.

and if she is starting at a high enough level to take a couple full on hits and survive that relieves a lot of my concerns. The healing focused cleric cohort will also be a boon. Should I presume the cleric will also be making curative potions &or wands? At fifth level the cleric cohort would certainly qualify for either, and while 1800 gp for a wand of 50 charges of cure light wounds (at level 5) is a bit expensive, the healing of (1d8+5)*50 is certainly useful. If the DM allows the cohort to create as if a lower level (some DMs do), then a wand of cure light wounds (as if level 1) would only cost 375 gp for curing of (1d8+1)*50 hp.

We already have a portion of our group fund set aside for a healing wand or two. I don't know if she'll go crafting though, or if the DM will allow it. Either way she will have a healing wand.
I always considered 1D8+1 healing more valuable than 1D8+5. For out-of-combat that is. Haven't really deliberated on it. For in-combat healing a higher lvl spell is a must imho. especially in this campaign where we get hits for more than 15 damage most of the time.
Either way, one house rule in this campaign is that healing potions are 50%, so a cure serious wounds potion costs 375 gp, and we've been quaffing dozens of those so far. A wand is better though, but a lvl 3 wand costs more than 11 k without crafting. With crafting, and between the four of us the group fund could easily cover it though.

 

[Oryan77]

No Oryan77. You haven't been listening.

No, my problem is I've been listening too much. I don't really think you've been listening to me though. I understood your ordeal the first time you mentioned it, it's a pretty simple predicament.

But your responses are exactly the same responses I've heard from a certain powergamer I used to deal with. Every single one of your responses has made it pretty clear about what kind of player you are. Rather than me trying to help you get your way, I was trying to get us (me & you) to figure out "why" he really wouldn't let you take the feat. And then figure out how to deal with it.

I thought it might be one of those situations where you might need to suck it up and let him have his way for the good of the game. I mean christ...you fought with him over MSN about it. You've said everything in the book to prove my assumptions right. So I assumed he was not letting you have the feat more because he was annoyed with you...not so much about character concepts & rules.

Anyway, you got your way and you're happy. Good luck with your game.

 

[renau1g]

Yeah, I'm with you oryzan, Having a 25 INT at that level is absurd, not even sure how you can get it there, start at 18. Unless you are playing a Pixie (+6 Int, +1 at lvl 4), or one of the +4 races (Janni, Ogre Mage) and got a headband of Intellect.