What is considered a Hit?

[Nichwee]

The abstraction some people dont often get is all those descriptions are perfectly valid representations of either "hitting" (game term) with the bat or "missing" (game term) and still doing damage.

Yeah. A Miss line is just a "clumsy hit" in real world terms - or it can be.

Plus they indicate that damage isn't necessarily purely a physical countdown in DnD anymore, it can represent morale/determination/loyalty/etc as well as physical health now (why things like Invigorating powers can give THP, as they can be looked at as boosting the PCs morale and drive to succeed).

This also gives an answer to "How do you do damage to a person with a baseball bat without hitting him?"
You swung so hard at his friend that you scared the daylights out of him, and he is a few morale points (as represented by his HP total) closer to just calling it quits. (as how cleave damages the adjacent enemy but doesn't hit them).

 

[Garthanos]

Yeah. A Miss line is just a "clumsy hit" in real world terms - or it can be.

Plus they indicate that damage isn't necessarily purely a physical countdown in DnD anymore, it can represent morale/determination/loyalty/etc as well as physical health now (why things like Invigorating powers can give THP, as they can be looked at as boosting the PCs morale and drive to succeed).

This also gives an answer to "How do you do damage to a person with a baseball bat without hitting him?"
You swung so hard at his friend that you scared the daylights out of him, and he is a few morale points (as represented by his HP total) closer to just calling it quits. (as how cleave damages the adjacent enemy but doesn't hit them).

Very good point... scared friend is awesome ;-)

I need to add that one to my list.. I am attempting to build a list of cool reskinnings but havent been diligent about recording them recently.
http://www.dyasdesigns.com/roleplay/reskinningthefighter.html

 

[keterys]

He smashes into the paladin, and the wizard next to him takes 6 damage.

What kind of damage?

Pee your pants damage.

 

[DracoSuave]

its not anything cinematic, it's semantic. I dare you to think of a way to hurt a man with a baseball bat, but without hitting him.

You swing for his head, and as he ducks, you knee him in his face.

Didn't hit him with the -bat- now did I?

 

[Nichwee]

You swing for his head, and as he ducks, you knee him in his face.

Didn't hit him with the -bat- now did I?

You got it backwards. She asked for "hurt him with a baseball bat without hitting him".
You gave her "Hurt him by hitting him, but without a baseball bat".

 

[Garthanos]

You got it backwards. She asked for "hurt him with a baseball bat without hitting him".
You gave her "Hurt him by hitting him, but without a baseball bat".

The bat swing caused the the knee to even be able to hit... so a better bat swing would better enable a better knee hit.

Same thing exists with sheilds and swords used in tandom...
Attacks with a shield and weapon requirement ... and [W] damage do not necessarily mean the weapon has to be the one really deliverying the pay load...

Visualization is very up to the player.

It could be seen as one of the reasons you can make your finishing attack a knock out.

You could swing the bat and the bad guy drops backward too far momentarily forgetting the wall behind him and bounces off of it... the wall may have hit but the bat was used to achieve it.

 

[Nichwee]

The bat swing caused the the knee to even be able to hit... so a better bat swing would better enable a better knee hit.

By that logic, any MBA granted by a Warlord is the Warlord causing damage/reducing enemies to 0 etc, and should trigger relevent effects.

What does the damage is what caused the damage in DnD (see melee damage, ranged damage, etc - the effect, and weapon, directly causing the damage does the damage regardless what enabled the oppertunity).
Hence why I felt his example didn't fit the stated requirements. Especially as the stated requirements were "without hitting him" not even "without hitting him with the baseball bat". The knee in the example can be considered to have 'hit' the person from a flavour stand point (and Flip was talking flavour as she asked how does anyone do damage without hitting someone).

This was why I put forth my example where "damage" was done without any contact at all with the effectted person (morale damage).

 

[Garthanos]

By that logic, any MBA granted by a Warlord is the Warlord causing damage/reducing enemies to 0 etc, and should trigger relevent effects.

you are confusing narrative reality with mechanics... and thinking the narrative should enforce the mechanics.. with the above. But I do realize below you were right about it not conforming to "without hitting them at all"

What does the damage is what caused the damage in DnD

"caused" is the key part of that... phrase ... causation doesnt need to be direct. What caused the damage is the power... ;-) not the object. The bat might enhance the effectiveness of the power... without touching the enemy.. and in fact ... the definition of hit point loss means that much of the time "nothing at all" directly even touched your enemy... not even the element that "mechanically was used in the attack"

Hence why I felt his example didn't fit the stated requirements. Especially as the stated requirements were "without hitting him" not even "without hitting him with the baseball bat".

Oh I see... without hitting him didnt fit the visualization since this visualization included the knee as pretty much you hitting him...

 

[Nichwee]

Oh I see... without hitting him didnt fit the visualization since this visualization included the knee as pretty much you hitting him...

Yes. Flip was argueing that "damaging someone" and "hitting someone" were the same (Note Flip, not me). Thus any damage counted as "hitting". And would be able to trigger effects that can be done on "whenever you hit a target you ....".
Thus she asked "How do you do damage...... without hitting him?". A narrative/flavour question (as per RAW the asnwer is simple, do damage via the Miss line).

I suggested a method to do damage (or actually to reduce HP totals) that even narratively did not involve hitting the person - while I felt the example Draco gave failed to avoid the "hitting him" component in a narrative sense. And instead merely avoided "hitting him with the baseball bat", but as Cleave does bonus damage unrelated to the baseball bat it could well be a knee/kick but that would still, narratively, require hitting the person. And would thus fall into the catergory of arguement Flip was using to say all damage = hitting.

 

[Garthanos]

I suggested a method to do damage (or actually to reduce HP totals)

I think things would be a tad more obvious if "reduce hp" or "hp loss" was substituted for "damage" in every non-flavor bit of the rule books.