dnd 3.5 - Challenge my party.

[olay]

Hey y'all.

I've been DM'ing for like 10 years, but since I live in Sweden, DnD is not as prevalent here. Thus, we got into DnD just about a year or so ago. I found Forgotten Realms interesting after playing BG, IWD and NWN about a gazillion times.

I'm running a campaign, and my main problem is that the players seem to breeze through any challenge I put before them. I am planning to take them all the way from lvl 1 to 23.

They are at lvl 15 now, and the party consists of a spellsword, a druid, a monk and a ranger.

Their healing capabilities aren't super, but the Monk is capable of healing himself decently, so is the spellsword - and the druid has a few Heals memorized.

The main problem I deal with is their insane burst damage in the early rounds of combat. The Spellsword generally uses his circlet of rapid casting, casts true strike, does maximum power attack and charges. Then the Monk follows up and by the end of round two they are generally up to 250-300 damage caused.

I threw a Horned Devil and 4 Barbed devils at them at lvl 14, and barely managed to scratch them. At one point I also sent a Black Dragon with a CR 3 levels above them at them. Didn't do much.

The only time i managed to give them more than they could handle was when I threw a pack of Greater Shadows at them, the strength damage took them by surprise and killed two of them (who were soon revived with a couple of true resurrections).

Do you guys have any tips for giving them a difficult challenge or two? anything between lvl 16 and 21?

I really dislike power gaming, so my biggest regrets are not controlling how they progressed their characters more and letting them buy all the gear they wanted from MIC.

Maybe I'm just horrible at DM'ing.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[Gort]

Sounds like you need to inflate the number of enemies, while not debilitating the characters with effects like strength damage. That way there's something left to fight after round 2.

Alternatively, simply ignore all damage the players do with their true strike cheese in the first round (tell them something happens like, "The protective runes around the knight flicker and go dark" so they think they actually did something) and then settle down and have a proper fight.

 

[El Mahdi]

First off: Welcome to ENWorld.

Second: I don't think you're a bad DM. Nobody is a perfect DM anyway, and the fact you're here proves you're striving to improve your games. That's really all anyone can ever do. Don't beat yourself up. Just enjoy the game.

Lastly: I think you need to ask if your players think your encounters are too easy. If they don't, then I wouldn't change anything as far as power level goes - I'd just add in more story/RP elements to make encounters more fun for you also.

If your players think they are too easy also, then perhaps get a read on your groups average surge in the beginning of a combat (the amount of damage they do in that initial surge) and just add that amount of hit points (or maybe half) to your monsters (spread the hit points out though). Maybe that will lessen the impact of that initial surge, without taking away your players fun of just laying-the-smack-down on the bad guys.

Remember, CR is meant as a guide, but every group is different. You are well within your right to modify as needed to work with your group.

The ultimate rule though is, if you and your players are having fun, nothing else really matters.

 

[roguerouge]

Illusions should work nicely for first round bomber PCs. They use their best punches in round one, only to hear the dreaded words... "Will Save to Disbelieve."

Then, the real bad guys show up.

Alternatively, anti-magic works wonders, as do grapplers.

 

[Gort]

Illusions should work nicely for first round bomber PCs. They use their best punches in round one, only to hear the dreaded words... "Will Save to Disbelieve."

Then, the real bad guys show up.

Alternatively, anti-magic works wonders, as do grapplers.

Those all sound like great ways to piss players off. They've built their characters to do millions of points of damage, they're going to be annoyed if every time they drop their party piece broken combo the bad guy turns out to be a clone/robot/illusion/simulacrum. Just swarm them with dudes they can hack to pieces, they'll enjoy seeing how many orcs they can kill in one full attack.

Edit: An alternative might be to talk to the players and say, "Well done, you broke the game. I can't make a fight any more that you will find challenging but will not instantly kill you because of your munched out damage levels. If you remove this this and this, the game will be more fun for me to run".

 

[thecasualoblivion]

The most expedient solution would be "Rocks fall, everybody dies"

More seriously...

In my experience, this is how high level 3.5E is, unless your players specifically choose not to play this way. As a DM, you either can manage it, can't manage it, or don't find it worth the hassle to manage it. If you find that either of the second two are true, the best solution is to retire the game and start a new campaign. If players complain, you just tell them that the game isn't enjoyable to DM anymore.

One way to manage it is to stop having combat and/or stop caring about combat being significant. I don't know if this is a solution for you. It isn't for me.

 

[roguerouge]

Those all sound like great ways to piss players off. They've built their characters to do millions of points of damage, they're going to be annoyed if every time they drop their party piece broken combo the bad guy turns out to be a clone/robot/illusion/simulacrum. Just swarm them with dudes they can hack to pieces, they'll enjoy seeing how many orcs they can kill in one full attack.

As someone who's played in a 10 year campaign that went to level 36, let me just say that the occasional combat against people specifically designed to attack your weakness is thrilling and suggests that the entire campaign world's villains are strategizing to stop you. It's like being a star.

It stinks if your DM does it every time, but intermittently? It rocks.

 

[olay]

In my experience, this is how high level 3.5E is, unless your players specifically choose not to play this way. As a DM, you either can manage it, can't manage it, or don't find it worth the hassle to manage it. If you find that either of the second two are true, the best solution is to retire the game and start a new campaign. If players complain, you just tell them that the game isn't enjoyable to DM anymore.

Yeah it seems that this is how high level 3.5 plays out.

Next time I am DM'ing a campaign I think I'm gonna force the players to play pure PHB-classes or something like that. When everybody chooses 2 classes and 2 prestige classes and ransacks SpC for every possible cheese combination DM'ing gets annoying quickly.

Since I've been DM'ing this thing for about 25 sessions or so I'll see it through to the end though.

I've compiled a list of banned spells and stuff (like the dreaded wraithstrike and the similarly silly avasculate) to make my life a little easier. It would seriously tick me off to see them come to the evil Dracolich baddie, avasculate him down to 450 HP, and then kill him in round 3 with a burst of wraithstrikes. Also, I think I'm gonna start tough encounters out with a few not-so-dangerous bad guys, to make the players blow their wads before the real challenge.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Destil]

I'd just like to point out that the two most powerful classes in 3E are in the PHB (druid and cleric). Not that crazy prestige class mixing isn't going to make something more powerful.

Most likely the problem is their crazy magic items, though. I'd throw a disjunction or two their way...

 

[SolitonMan]

I think that some of the suggestions here are excellent, although the advice to beware of doing things that simply anger the players is wise. Disjunction is one of the ways to anger any group, especially in a game like 3.5 where so much of the characters' power comes in the form of magic items.

In addition to the idea of hitting them with a larger number of lesser opponents with some abilities that may target the party's weaknesses, I'd suggest that traps and environmental hazards are useful against groups of any level. Does the party use magic to fly frequently? If so, have them attacked in the midst of a windstorm that can push them around. If they're on the ground, difficult terrain to deal with as they're hit from above by archers can be useful. Icy venues for ground bound characters can also present a useful challenge. Or imagine a scene playing out in a lava filled cavern where plumes blast into the air at random intervals and locations so that it's dangerous for all parties present.

But as others have said, as long as everyone has fun, you're doing a great job as a DM. Good luck!