dnd 3.5 - Challenge my party.

[malkav666]

I have been in your shoes and in your players shoes before. I would suggest talking to them first and finding out how they feel about the challenge level (and the fun level while you are at it). There have been several occasions when I have as both a player and as a DM, thought something was amiss with the campaign, and decided to talk to the other parties involved, only to find out that they were having a GREAT time. Maybe your players really get off on kicking ass and taking names. I know some of my players do.

If they are great with it, but you are filling unfulfilled as a DM, there are ways to challenge them and the tactics they use without completely removing all the baddass from their toons.

I would suggest setting up your encounters like a chess board. If you know you have a Psi-warrior in play on the players team don't just set your queen out in front where she will take a 300 point improved psi-warrior over sized cheese rush to the face. There are many ways to obtain this:

1. Use mooks to block the path. This will not ultimately keep your party from taking the queen (and arguably you don't want to prevent them, you just don't want to lay down and hand it to them). But it will give a few rounds to the queen to roar a bit before she gets beat down.

2. Another tactic is just to have 2 queens and have them support each other.

3. USE TERRAIN! All you need to stop a basic charge in 3.x is some pebbles on the floor or a fight on some stairs. And if you really want to make it a little different, you could try attacking from balconies or other raised areas! And if you are really feeling saucy take the fight into the swimming pool or to the air! There are an unlimited amount of different things you can do to make a fight different using terrain. And most of them don't feel too cheesy and have the extra benefit of often making your players excited, and making your combats more memorable.

4. Use deception. This can be as simple as an illusionary creature (as previously stated). But you can also use invisible creatures, charming creatures, or even creatures that the party does not recognize as creatures (like doppelgangers).

5. Use some challenges that do NOT have HP. Give them some devious traps, or bitchin riddles, or diplomatic (or otherwise RP oriented challenges). In other words bring their skills into play in way where they are important to the mission at hand.

6.Use their own mojo against them sometimes. Show them how it feels to be charged by an enlarged psi-warrior wielding a huge x5 crit great scythe, with a full power attack true strike. Make them fight themselves! Used sparingly this can be a lot of fun.

7. Changes the LAWS with DM power. Use this sparingly or players will feel pissed and jipped. And when you do use it try and give fair warning. These effects include anti-magic zones, pocket dimensions with special rules, and maybe even special planes. If done correctly this can make for an exciting adventure where your players have to use alternate tactics to get it done, and have a better time for it. Done poorly the players will feel like they are being cheated. A good example of this being done correctly is the cave in FFIV where your characters are not allowed to have metal items, you know going in that you need to adjust your tactics.

8. Sometimes you just need to cheat a little. If your players keep killing of your dudes before the can get a shot off, and you need to get the shot off for your story, then have em soak a hit every now and again. Just so they can fire their six-guns a little before they bite the big one. Use this sparingly though, as its really not that much fun for the players if they know the monsters will last for 3 rounds no matter what tactics they use, or what they throw at it. Its much cooler when the opposite happens rarely when an orc they just hit for 200 damage is still walking. He may only have 1 hp left, but they party thinks they are dealing with a hard ball now.

9. And more importantly a fair percentage of the time, you just need to let your players rock the house. As a player it is awesome to go into an encounter and mop up the bad guys sometimes. I would say that almost a full 1/3 of the fights should be this way in my opinion.

But no matter what you decide to do, remember that this is a game where everyone is supposed to have fun, and you are not supposed to WIN as the DM by killing your party over and over. You win by designing the special encounter that makes them feel like they could have been killed, thusly making them feel like they earned their glories. It does not matter if the threat was real or not. As long as they think it was, you all win.

love,

malkav

 

[pawsplay]

If they are firing off True Strike and using circlets and stuff against fairly medium CR opponents, then it sounds like the system is working fine. They are still using resources, even if they aren't losing hit points.

Dragons are good, but for a well-tuned party, I would say that a nice CR for a solo monster they have some forewarning with is APL +5.

The key is to activate their weaknesses without bowling them over. Against these guys, consider a gang of LE dwarf monks with that tactical feat that negates power attack damage. How about multiple regenerating monsters? True strike may take out a couple, but the rest should provide some amusement.

And for the record, in 25 years of gaming, I only ever fudged one DM die roll, and that wasn't to preserve my precious NPCs.

 

[Joseph Rossow]

I am currently running a 3.5 edition D&D campaign wherein all my players are between levels 14 and 15. I do not have too much difficulty challenging my players.

I'd like to offer my opinions:

First, contrary to what some have said, I recommend you do not approach your players on the topic. Going to your players for approval makes you look weak, and your players will capitalize on that and walk all over you. You are the DM. You make the decision.

Surprise them with a challenge. The next time they run up to an evil cleric and do 300+ points of damage to him in the first round, slam right back and dish it out right back at them. Their jaws will drop, they will feel cheated, they will feel they're being treated unfairly, but you must hold your ground and attack mercilessly.

If your encounters don't make them fear for their character's lives, then what good are your encounters?

Make the monsters stronger. Not every Wyvern is 7HD, some are stronger, bigger, tougher. Natural armor is a great place to fudge in extra AC, and you can arbitrarily increase enemies' ability scores to make them more dangerous. Increasing hit-points, however, is the best way to go. Putting a boss out there with 1,500 hp will make for, at least, a long enough encounter for the player's to savor the thrills of fighting an epic enemy.

Nothing works quite as well as attack and damage. By this late in the game the group will have developed a myriad of immunities, from grappling to diseases, poisons, even the elements. Simply hitting them is often the most effective means of attack, so design enemies thusly.

Most importantly, once you have introduced an enemy or NPC that can wipe the floor with your player's characters, do not, under any circumstance, nerf it due to their protests or reactions. The nature of a challenge is something you rise to and overcome. If you nerf that evil cleric for the next session, because you felt bad for how hard he pwn'd your players, you've denied your players of getting their hard-earned revenge!

A group is a very organic thing. I'd really need more information about the characters, the setting and the enemies they're fighting to give you anything more definitive. In any case, I hope my suggestions gave you something to think about. Good luck!

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I am currently running a 3.5 edition D&D campaign wherein all my players are between levels 14 and 15. I do not have too much difficulty challenging my players.

I'd like to offer my opinions:

First, contrary to what some have said, I recommend you do not approach your players on the topic. Going to your players for approval makes you look weak, and your players will capitalize on that and walk all over you. You are the DM. You make the decision.

Surprise them with a challenge. The next time they run up to an evil cleric and do 300+ points of damage to him in the first round, slam right back and dish it out right back at them. Their jaws will drop, they will feel cheated, they will feel they're being treated unfairly, but you must hold your ground and attack mercilessly.

If your encounters don't make them fear for their character's lives, then what good are your encounters?

Make the monsters stronger. Not every Wyvern is 7HD, some are stronger, bigger, tougher. Natural armor is a great place to fudge in extra AC, and you can arbitrarily increase enemies' ability scores to make them more dangerous. Increasing hit-points, however, is the best way to go. Putting a boss out there with 1,500 hp will make for, at least, a long enough encounter for the player's to savor the thrills of fighting an epic enemy.

Nothing works quite as well as attack and damage. By this late in the game the group will have developed a myriad of immunities, from grappling to diseases, poisons, even the elements. Simply hitting them is often the most effective means of attack, so design enemies thusly.

Most importantly, once you have introduced an enemy or NPC that can wipe the floor with your player's characters, do not, under any circumstance, nerf it due to their protests or reactions. The nature of a challenge is something you rise to and overcome. If you nerf that evil cleric for the next session, because you felt bad for how hard he pwn'd your players, you've denied your players of getting their hard-earned revenge!

A group is a very organic thing. I'd really need more information about the characters, the setting and the enemies they're fighting to give you anything more definitive. In any case, I hope my suggestions gave you something to think about. Good luck!

I don't know that arbitrarily manipulating monster attributes and stats is acceptable at every table in 3.5E. In any other edition, sure thing, but 3.5E has the conceit that PCs and enemies are built using the same system, and throwing that system out the window is a substantial houserule you can't just slap on.

I'm not saying it isn't ok. Its what I did. I did make it clear I was doing this, and I did it from day one. I also never used the standard monster rules at all, or the monster manuals for that matter. The social contract between me and my players stated that I wouldn't be following the rules. You just can't do this because you can, because there is the expectation within the system that the DM is following the rules.

 

[Joseph Rossow]

Enemies may be built using the same system, but (for example) the decision to give an Ogre a Strength of 21, instead of 18 or 24, is totally arbitrary.

If I wanted to justify the increase (or decrease) for such a creature, I could simply give it a different name, such as a Gigan-Ogre (or Ogre-Runt), and claim it was a different species (or breed).

Doing either is not invoking a houserule, it is simply creating your own monsters.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Enemies may be built using the same system, but (for example) the decision to give an Ogre a Strength of 21, instead of 18 or 24, is totally arbitrary.

If I wanted to justify the increase (or decrease) for such a creature, I could simply give it a different name, such as a Gigan-Ogre (or Ogre-Runt), and claim it was a different species (or breed).

Doing either is not invoking a houserule, it is simply creating your own monsters.

I was talking about the 1500hp monster above all else in you post. That being said, you really make it sound like arbitrarily changing numbers to get a better result. As I stated in my reply, there isn't anything wrong with that, but its not something you can universally do in all groups without warning.

 

[mhensley]

Try a couple of these-

Advanced Dread Wraith
Large Undead (Incorporeal)
Hit Dice: 32d12 (208 hp)
Initiative: +13
Speed: Fly 60 ft. (good) (12 squares)
Armor Class: 27 (-1 size, +9 Dex, +9 deflection), touch 27, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +16/-
Attack: Incorporeal touch +24 melee (2d6 plus 1d8 Constitution drain)
Full Attack: Incorporeal touch +24 melee (2d6 plus 1d8 Constitution drain)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constitution drain, create spawn
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., daylight powerlessness, incorporeal traits, lifesense 60 ft., undead traits, unnatural aura
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +21, Will +22
Abilities: Str 0, Dex 28, Con 0, Int 17, Wis 18, Cha 28
Skills: Diplomacy +35, Hide +35, Intimidate +35, Knowledge (religion) +35, Listen +35, Search +35, Sense Motive +35, Spot +35, Survival +12 (+6 following tracks)
Feats: Ability Focus (Constitution drain), Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (incorporeal touch), Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 15
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always lawful evil

Lifesense (Su)
A dread wraith notices and locates living creatures within 60 feet, just as if it possessed the blindsight ability. It also senses the strength of their life force automatically, as if it had cast deathwatch.

Constitution Drain (Su)
Living creatures hit by a dread wraith's incorporeal touch attack must succeed on a DC 29 Fortitude save or take 1d8 points of Constitution drain. The save DC is Charisma-based. On each such successful attack, the dread wraith gains 5 temporary hit points.

Create Spawn (Su)
Any humanoid slain by a dread wraith becomes a wraith in 1d4 rounds. Its body remains intact and inanimate, but its spirit is torn free from its corpse and transformed. Spawn are under the command of the wraith that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

 

[El Mahdi]

I am currently running a 3.5 edition D&D campaign wherein all my players are between levels 14 and 15. I do not have too much difficulty challenging my players.

I'd like to offer my opinions:

First, contrary to what some have said, I recommend you do not approach your players on the topic. Going to your players for approval makes you look weak, and your players will capitalize on that and walk all over you. You are the DM. You make the decision.

Surprise them with a challenge. The next time they run up to an evil cleric and do 300+ points of damage to him in the first round, slam right back and dish it out right back at them. Their jaws will drop, they will feel cheated, they will feel they're being treated unfairly, but you must hold your ground and attack mercilessly.

If your encounters don't make them fear for their character's lives, then what good are your encounters?

Make the monsters stronger. Not every Wyvern is 7HD, some are stronger, bigger, tougher. Natural armor is a great place to fudge in extra AC, and you can arbitrarily increase enemies' ability scores to make them more dangerous. Increasing hit-points, however, is the best way to go. Putting a boss out there with 1,500 hp will make for, at least, a long enough encounter for the player's to savor the thrills of fighting an epic enemy.

Nothing works quite as well as attack and damage. By this late in the game the group will have developed a myriad of immunities, from grappling to diseases, poisons, even the elements. Simply hitting them is often the most effective means of attack, so design enemies thusly.

Most importantly, once you have introduced an enemy or NPC that can wipe the floor with your player's characters, do not, under any circumstance, nerf it due to their protests or reactions. The nature of a challenge is something you rise to and overcome. If you nerf that evil cleric for the next session, because you felt bad for how hard he pwn'd your players, you've denied your players of getting their hard-earned revenge!

A group is a very organic thing. I'd really need more information about the characters, the setting and the enemies they're fighting to give you anything more definitive. In any case, I hope my suggestions gave you something to think about. Good luck!

Folks, this has to be a Troll. I can't possibly imagine anyone keeping a group by DM'ing like this. This has got to be the absolute worst DM'ing advice I've ever heard.

Do not apporach your players about the topic because it will make you look weak? Seriously?

What is this, Conan the DM?

It's a collaborative game, meant to be fun for players and DM alike. If a DM's players are not having fun, then he is failing at his job.

Do ask your players for feedback.

Do Surprise them with a challenge, but DO NOT MAKE THEM FEEL CHEATED. How can that possibly be fun for anyone?

I think I'd title this post "How Not to DM", "Common DM'ing Mistakes 101", or "How To Make Enemies and Alienate Your Group".

 

[Celebrim]

I think Malkav666 gives generally good advice, whereas Joseph Rossow is more useful as a reverse barometer.

In my experience, most players if faced with a straight up challenge will triumph easily. Most players with sufficient knowledge about what is going on will quickly and efficiently set up a devestating plan and ruthlessly implement it, with the result of dead monsters in a hurry.

If you really want to challenge players, you have to put them in situations where the player is themselves confused, uncertain, and fearful.

However, I should say that you shouldn't be trying to do this all the time. In most encounters, you want the PC's to triumph. The PC's triumphing is the expected result.

Things not to do:

1) Don't up the damage your enemies produce. Don't try to get into slugfests with your party. This will lead to one of two things: players changing their tactics to scry/buff/teleport and fleeing on the second round of combat or TPKs. Neither is fun for anyone.
2) Don't try to compensate with a single big foe - you'll lose big time in the action economy.
3) Don't cheat - you'll regret it when the character has a run of bad luck and you cause an unnecessary player death.

Things you should do:

1) Use terrain to push the characters out of their comfort zone. Force balance checks by making the room slippery. Have them fight it out on a glacier covered with crags, or on a narrow mountain trail next to precipice, or on a rope bridge, or in the limbs of a tree, or at the base of a roaring waterfall, or inside at an active volcano. Put the enemies behind cover. Put the enemies behind obstacles that force the characters to engage in a pure missile exchange. Put the characters in a confined space to force everyone into melee and grappling immediately. Drop the fight underwater, or put it in a windstorm, or in fog bank that limits visibility and gives both sides concealment.
2) Outnumber the characters 2:1 (or more) so that they 'waste' alot of damage on overkill and blowthrough.
3) Use mixed parties of brutes and artillery that work in cordination. Give them alot of targets. For example, a mixture of frost giant barbarians (holding a line), advanced Qorrashi (providing artillery), and ice mephits (flanking and providing distractions) could give them tactical fits (especially in the right terrain), while providing an extended combat with lots of targets no one of which is utterly overwhelming, but each of which represents a threat.
4) Introduce a Nemesis. In this case, if they go Nova alot, I'd introduce a powerful illusionist (Paxcreeg from the link in my sig might be an interesting choice especially if your team has a lawful bent, but a human foe is often more personal) who is always one step ahead of the players, taunting them, manipulating them, outsmarting them, and above all getting away. You definately do not want to do this with every foe and never with every encounter, but every campaign needs to have one well hated nemesis. The challenge of the nemesis does not need to be surviving the nemesis, because the nemesis's primary goal is not destroying the PC's but escaping from them. Thus, the nemesis always has a plan for escaping, even if it means he may be forced from the stage early. It's best if the Nemesis doesn't use the same escape plan again and again, both because your PC's will find a way to counter and because they'll get frustrated if the same plan keeps working despite their best efforts.
4) Mooks are good. The trick is having a mook that is just tough enough to represent an obstacle, but not so tough that they become a major threat in themselves. Look for creatures with attacks that bypass AC, or which still do damage even on a miss. If they can defend themselves somewhat, even better. Those make good mooks against high level characters - the aforementioned mephits are some of my favorites but shadows (as you've already found out) and wraiths work pretty well too if the don't have a cleric to blow them away.
5) Make sure you are using good tactics. Alot of the time when I see a DM struggling to handle the PC's, its because one or more of the PC's is a much better tactician than they are.
6) Reskin the monsters. If PC's can't recognize what they are facing and don't know its capabilities, they are much more likely to waste actions doing the wrong thing. Take a stat block and apply it to a monster that looks differently. Give monsters templates and class levels so that they have unexpected abilities. Players get much easier to handle when they don't have perfect knowledge. Do this sparingly though. You'll be amazed by how much some groups come apart when faced with something that they don't understand. I've generated alot of player deaths in fights that the players should have easily one because the players became confused, disoriented, disorganized, and paniced. Start out small and see how they handle surprises before dropping them in a EL+4 encounter that has surprises in it.
7) Lay ambushes. Have a trap between the players and the monsters (wide pit trap, reverse gravity, wall of fire is errected, etc.). Have a second group of monsters arrive behind the party just as they are engaging the first group. Have the monsters come into the fight with significant preperations and defenses - they've quaffed potions, have had low level spellcasters buff them (invisibility, aid, haste, etc.), are hiding amongst illusions, and so forth.

 

[Joseph Rossow]

Hey, check it out! Someone's flamed me! That's a first for me here. At the very least, I'm glad my comments are, in fact, being read.

Folks, this has to be a Troll. I can't possibly imagine anyone keeping a group by DM'ing like this. This has got to be the absolute worst DM'ing advice I've ever heard.

To begin with, I am not a troll. I simply have a different opinion about how to resolve this problem than you. And though you might disagree with them, I put them forward for people to see and make their own decisions on.

Do not apporach your players about the topic because it will make you look weak? Seriously?

What is this, Conan the DM?

lol! But, really, one does look weak if they must turn to their players in order balance the game. That is something a DM needs to do up-front. Going back and saying "we need to rework this," is admitting that the DM made a mistake, and compromises their authority.

It's a collaborative game, meant to be fun for players and DM alike. If a DM's players are not having fun, then he is failing at his job.

This is exactly what I'm trying to help. It is clear from the poster that the DM is frustrated running their game because they cannot find a way to challenge their players. The DM needs to have fun too because, as you said, "it's a collaborative game."

Do ask your players for feedback.

Ah, but that's different from consulting them about the balance in the game.

Asking them, afterwards, "how'd that go?" is a great way to get an idea how things are working. I often do this in the car on the way home (as we carpool to and from games) to see what the player's temperatures are like on the various obstacles.

But going to your players to negotiate rules or "get ideas" on how to deal with things, or what to do next, only undermines a DM by making them seem indecisive and inexperienced (and weak).

Do Surprise them with a challenge, but DO NOT MAKE THEM FEEL CHEATED. How can that possibly be fun for anyone?

I'm not advocating you go out and make your players feel bad. I was saying that, as a result of a higher challenge, players may try to push back on a DM by expressing feelings, like being cheated. As a DM, you need to hold your ground. A DM has every right to introduce a monster that can beat up his player's characters. Ultimately, overcoming and defeating those monsters is part of what makes the game so fun.

I think I'd title this post "How Not to DM", "Common DM'ing Mistakes 101", or "How To Make Enemies and Alienate Your Group".

lol!

I've been gaming for over 13 years and had some spectacularly successful games (as well as my share of failures). I'm simply offering another way to approach the situation.