Why I'm done with 4e

I could conceive of someone who had trouble staying in character when such things came up.
:erm:

"trouble staying in character"???? I don't see that fitting the issue at all.
You can role play ANY system. Staying in character is really never constrained by what the rules say. It is just a question of how good a job do the mechanics do of creating the scenario.
 

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You need to go back and read the quote I responded to.
I read the post, and that's a different mindset, but I am curious what you say to someone, namely me, who makes no changes on the fly/justifications and makes no compromises with narrative and plays 4E. And enjoys it greatly. And still has his narrative coming before mechanics.

I guess my point is that 4E does not require mechanics coming before narrative, and I see no where in the books that encourages or implies this mindset. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here, but I am still curious if you have more support for the argument that someone looking for a narrative before mechanics game will not be served by 4E. Or rather, how that someone will be served significantly better by previous editions. (I say significantly better just to say that a .000001 difference isn't significant, just something, you know, reasonable. A reasonable difference.)

My standpoint is that the framework homogeneity brought about by 4E has actually made it easier for narrative to become the focus, because mechanics take a backseat. You seem the think that the opposite has happened, but I think by making everyone's mechanics the same, it let the Class Designers focus on making flavorful and interesting classes. Whether that was successful or not is a different thread, but I still think it paved the way for narrative focus.
 
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I read the post, and that's a different mindset, but I am curious what you say to someone, namely me, who makes no changes on the fly/justifications and makes no compromises with narrative and plays 4E. And enjoys it greatly. And still has his narrative coming before mechanics

I guess my point is that 4E does not require mechanics coming before narrative, and I see no where in the books that encourages or implies this mindset.
Yeah, we have to disagree here. And as the consistent theme from the pro-4E side is that there is nothing wrong with this, I'll consider you an odd outlier. (Again, not that I'm calling it "wrong" myself. Not my preference certainly, but not wrong. I'm just saying that 4E fans don't generally deny it, they embrace it.)

If you say that your fighter is so annoying that mindless undead and iron golems and plants "want to take down both to shut up and shut down physically" then you have most 100% certainly overcome the issue of narrative following mechanics. I accept that you have proven it does not need to be the case. However, you have done so by replacing what a I personally consider to be a fairly bad problem with something that I consider to be a really bad problem.
 

Actually, I lost sight of the forest for the tree. (not even trees)

I agree that you have solved the CaGi mechanics first issue. But the encounter based design issue remains. Can you tell me how you have put narrative first with your incredibly annoying character who is incredibly annoying once per encounter because the mechanics say so? I expect you have an answer, as you had me covered last time. I'd just like to hear it.
 

If you say that your fighter is so annoying that mindless undead and iron golems and plants "want to take down both to shut up and shut down physically" then you have most 100% certainly overcome the issue of narrative following mechanics. I accept that you have proven it does not need to be the case. However, you have done so by replacing what a I personally consider to be a fairly bad problem with something that I consider to be a really bad problem.
4e is my edition of choice, but it does tend to create more [arguably corner cases] in which all I can say is '"Ugh, well, moving on..."
 

I see some ofthe frustrations with 4E and i think, this current planescape campaign I'm doing will determine if we scrap 4E (granted, a heavily modified 4E full of house rules), and go back to 3.5E and just add the few mechanics of 4E that we like into 3.5E.

So if anyone wants book, I may have some books for sale in the next couple months :P hehe

I'm not sure i understand the poster's thoughts though.

The issues we have, is my style of game (I'm the DM) is a very heavy RP/exploration type game...not much combat unless teh combat really makes sense. There are times, when enemies won'tchase the players (logically) so then, they can run, no fights.I won'tmake them chase just to have a fight. also, we've gone easily 40 or so hours of game time (3-4 sessions for us) without a fight; all roleplay/exploration/research (in game)...

My players are more simulationist players (well, out of 7, all but 2). What happens is, we have a thoradorian minotaur (and we allow stat bonuses higher than +2, since it makes sense forthat race, and players prefer it to be how it should be...regardlessof if it's their race or not, and no one cares). Anyways, that minotaur is strong enough to easily kneel down and swing a long polearm around his head, hitting groups of enemies around him (if they are tall enough).

However, if he does that, 4E purists would argue that's not fare; it detracts from them using a power that may allow forsome damage to allthose around him, etc. However, it makes perfect sense for the Thoradorian.

My players complain if I don't allow "realistic" things like that;stuff that makes sense. Also in fights, players will doingenious things via spells (we have a custom magic system if the player requests to use it), or items or environment, and they have beaten fights without ever swinging a sword or using a 'power'.

Again; possible in 4E but much of it wouldn't be stuff that 4E players like.

There are other issues we have with the system; much ofwhich we house ruled over time....but now it'sreaching a critical pt...

The adventure we are doing..players went sevral hours in a hardcore roleplay sesisn with no dice rolling(screw skill challenge rolls garbage...players can act well, so i let them go for it and see how it turns out). It was brilliant and they got tons of bonus exp forit. I'm finding, as i go through all the planescape material (2E)and some 3 and 4E planar stuff for it, i have to ignore much of the rules, or house rule it to make it work how i want it. 3.5E had issues similar, but it wasn't as bad. I find 4E we have to house rule th emost to make the players happy...

But in the end, it's a game and if something isn't for you; it's not for you. No such thing as the best game system for everyone;all there can be, is what's best for YOU and your friends. If you can't house rule it; it's better to use a different system and face maybe whatever conversion you did was an error.

Sanjay
 

Actually, I lost sight of the forest for the tree. (not even trees)

I agree that you have solved the CaGi mechanics first issue. But the encounter based design issue remains. Can you tell me how you have put narrative first with your incredibly annoying character who is incredibly annoying once per encounter because the mechanics say so? I expect you have an answer, as you had me covered last time. I'd just like to hear it.
Out of curiosity, what is "CaGi?"

To answer your question, I would probably decide around character creation no matter what character I was why certain things I could only do at-will, certain things encounter, and certain things daily. For Wizards it could be a simple enough port from 3E. Daily is writing a scroll in your head, then using that scroll from memory (thus losing 'the scroll.') I forgot what edition had Vancian casting worded in this way, but I'm pretty sure that's from something. Encounter would be simpler spells, commitable to memory in only 5 minutes, but must be spent like scrolls the same way. At-will is actually recalling, memorizing, and spending magic on the fly. Explains why it is generally less powerful.

Unfortunately, like Tequila Sunrise says, the Come and Get It is a corner case thing as far as narrative goes. I would say that even automatons have some amount of intelligence in order to fight, and would detect the annoying fighters annoyingness as threat. By the way, this isn't a character of mine, just a spur of the moment thing here.

I feel like the line between narrative and realism is blurring a bit here, though. I'm not sure if this is the kind of answer you want. Realistically, I can't imagine why a guy with a sword would not constantly be using his best tactic if it was effective. Narratively, he is using best tactic constantly. He's constantly taunting and constantly being an ass, or whatever, I wish I would said a more interesting example to begin with. Only once during every encounter does the straw break the camels back and the enemies just want to shut him up. That is when Come and Get It is used.

I use a similar idea for making any kind of attack. Basically, two melee enemies locked in combat aren't trading blows with 6 seconds in between each blow, because that doesn't fit my narrative. But 1 attack every 6 seconds, assuming they spend their turn to attack, has the potential to cause the receiver of the attack to become closer to the point where they can no longer fight. This could be wounds, resolve, morale, you know, whatever. Insert whatever you want from HP=abstraction threads. The same applies to encounter powers. Only once every 5 minutes, even trying every round, will the attack have the potential to work.

Maybe you've misunderstood me from my first post: any 4E concept must still enter the 4E framework and inevitably be changed (more than likely,) just like any 3E character will go through the same process. For instance, if I want a Arcane caster who wears plate and casts effectively and has a weapon, I wouldn't be able to go straight wizard in either edition. So, what I do, like I described before, is reskin in order to not compromise on narrative. I play a swordmage, say his warding feature is plate mail and move on. If it's 3E I'm actually not sure, maybe a duskblade, it's been awhile. If you want a fighter that can behead someone every turn, and you have an interesting sleepy hollow esque story written out, no version of D&D (or DM) is going to allow you to do that. So, the point here is that mechanics can trump narrative in any edition of D&D no matter how narrative focused you are.

If the point you want to make is that 3E requires less compromise, whatever, I don't see the point of arguing it. My final stand is that all versions require compromise, and it is significant, but all versions of D&D allow you to place narrative at the forefront.
 

Encounter powers aren't narrative-driven??

In my opinion, encounter powers are one of the most narrative-driven aspect of the game, because they correspond so well to so much of the sort of fiction and pop culture that I use to inspire my stories (not necessarily directly in terms of setting elements or plot points, but often thematically), like fantasy and scifi novels, shows and movies, anime and comic books.

Those types of fiction overflow with terrific heroes who can do tons of amazing stuff....but who often tend to only do their cooler stuff pretty rarely, and otherwise default to a few basic moves.

Superman is the prime example of this. He has a huge assortment of powers which he can theoretically use at will and which when used to full capacity should render 95% of his enemies non-threats. For example, his upper level speed showings alone in the comics put him at much, much higher than the speed of light, which when combined with planet busting strength means he could easily throw nearly any enemy into space before it could think.

But that isn't how Superman actually fights as the story unfolds. If he's going to do something really high-end, he'll do it once a story. If he's going to use heat vision or freeze breath or x-ray vision or any of his other more esoteric powers, he'll probably do so just once or at most twice per a 22 page. comic. The rest of the time, he's mostly a fast and really strong guy who can fly and punches damn hard.

To me, that sounds a lot like how an encounter will function--the "throw them into space" move is his daily, the heat vision and freeze breath are encounters, and the superstrength is at will.

Other serialized formats are often similar. Take an ongoing, combat-heavy story like Berserk or Rurouni Kenshin. Gatts has his arm cannon, his crazy-ass armor, and a load of crazy techniques. But he never just spams any one of them, except for his basic deadly swordsmanship--his attacks get used roughly in inverse proportion to how powerfully they are. Kenshin knows a million crazy techniques, but never uses any but the most basic few more than once per fight, and has a few he only ever uses a few times in the entire series--again, the more rarely used the power, the better it is.

Sometimes there is a good simulationist reason for why the characters don't just spam the techniques--they require a direct and explicit investment of power or some other resource that renders them difficult to repeat at will. But often that justification is flimsy to non-existent--logically, Superman really would throw a lot more giant monsters into space than he does.

But regardless of whether there is a good simulationist reason (and honestly, for some characters like the Flash or Martian Manhunter, there is virtually never a good simulationist reason because their powers are just that uber), there is always a good narrative reason, and that is that Superman constantly flinging everyone into space at the speed of light doesn't make for a good story. And sure, sometimes he just fights enemy that can fly and breathe in space and its a non issue--but maybe that flying-space-breather makes no sense for a certain story, and you don't want to waste a ton of page space on fanwanking reasons for Superman not to instawin every time, so he conveniently "forgets" to operate below full capacity, or you say he held back out of some wierd moral principle, even though it mostly resulted in him having to struggle way more with the fight than he "realistically" should have--but in a way that was probably more fun to read about then the "realistic" fight would have been.

And by the same token, moves get less cool the more you see of them--so if you want a move to seem special, the hero shouldn't use it all the time. Gatts busting out the arm cannon once a fight is badass--Gatts camping out in a tree and cannonballing dudes all fight every fight, not so much.

Balance is a narrativist concern as well as a gamist one, and fiction abounds with stories that prioritize balance over simulationism for the sake of the story. That doesn't mean they always have to be at odds, but its a fallacy to pretend that simulationism=narrativism

In my opinion, encounter powers and daily powers are 100% narrativist. The heroes use their coolest powers more rarely because that makes for a cooler story--the powers remain cool, and the fights are as challenging as the story needs them to be.
 
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In 4e, those narrative player choices aren't all the powers, and most of them aren't big, but they are there, but there's touches of them in things like martial encounter and daily powers.

Players can do lots of narrative things with most of the powers ;).. the powers are not even a limit to the effects that you can narrate either in spite of what some folks seem to think. Your best results are if you can combine narrating something the DM included in the environment right in to the use of your powers. A rangers twin strike can blind two enemies in 4e terms by knocking the curtains the dm just described on top of two enemies heads... Very robinhood style. Even though twin strike doesnt include blinding enemies with it. Do it situation-ally and when your players realize yes they can do cool stuff based on what is being jointly visualized they will. This isnt house ruling its liberal use of page 42 effects.

The Players handbook is where they included the recommendation to visualize there powers... but I think inadequate help or examples was provided (other games which feature this give examples with every example character they present).
 
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hehe

i see a major difference here...people speak of how their adventures are inspired by comics, etc...

My adventures are inspired by The Divine Comedy, Se7en, Natural Born Killers, Mirrors, the SAW series, Dark City, and Paradise Lost.....

hehe

:)

Sanjay
 

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