Feather Fall in Rules Compendium?

[Jeff Wilder]

So by this logic you have full AC until you start combat and then suddenly you lose your Dex Bonus until it is your turn in the initiative order.

Yes.

Those that make attack rolls must take advantage of the "surprise" round - because - say it with me - you can't make an attack roll unless you are in a combat situation.

Where's the rule? There are plenty of situations in which one makes an attack roll outside of combat.

Now per the Rules Compendium pg 7

under Action types

"During a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. .. . ."

Action types do not exist outside of the rounds and rounds only refer to combat rounds.

This is telling you what you can do during combat, where actions are much more strictly controlled (because it matters what order things go in). It's not, logically or reasonably, saying a thing about what you can't do outside of combat, where action resolution is much looser.

 

[irdeggman]

Where's the rule? There are plenty of situations in which one makes an attack roll outside of combat.

Please give me an example of one when you are not in a "round" system - which does not exist outside of combat.

This is telling you what you can do during combat, where actions are much more strictly controlled (because it matters what order things go in). It's not, logically or reasonably, saying a thing about what you can't do outside of combat, where action resolution is much looser.

Nope. Rules Compendium defines actions and when they can be done - nothing for outside of combat.


Text in RC is "Action Types" it then says when you can perform them "During a normal round. . . ."

It does not state these action can be done "outside of combat", now if a specific action said it could (like free action "talking") then that would override the base rule for that case.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Please give me an example of one when you are not in a "round" system - which does not exist outside of combat.

Shooting an arrow at a target during the competition in a tourney. There are plenty of examples.

Nope. Rules Compendium defines actions and when they can be done - nothing for outside of combat.

Text in RC is "Action Types" it then says when you can perform them "During a normal round. . . ."

Once again, the rules say what you can do "during a normal round;" they (rightly) are not so restrictive outside combat.

Given that your insistence on inventing non-existent restrictions on out-of-combat action results in an absurdity -- namely, being unable to cast spells out of combat -- why do you insist on doing it? It's quite odd.

 

[pawsplay]

If you change it back to a free action, then you're overriding the Rules Compendium that cites Feather Fall as an example of now being an Immediate Action.

As I stated above, an Immediate Action is listed in the Rules Compendium as not being able to be used when flat-footed (i.e., before your first turn in combat) - other than that, it can be used at any time.

Feather Fall had been played since 1E days as a Free Action, so it seemed odd to me that it was changed in the later days of 3.5 to an Immediate Action.

Feather fall is an immediate action that differs from other immediate actions in that it can be used flat-footed. There is only a contradiction if you insist feather fall cannot have special rules listed in its spell description.

 

[irdeggman]

Shooting an arrow at a target during the competition in a tourney. There are plenty of examples.

Once again, the rules say what you can do "during a normal round;" they (rightly) are not so restrictive outside combat.

Given that your insistence on inventing non-existent restrictions on out-of-combat action results in an absurdity -- namely, being unable to cast spells out of combat -- why do you insist on doing it? It's quite odd.

Let's see - I didn't insist that you are not flat footed outside of combat. When the text states that you are until your first turn in the initiative order. I did come up with how to apply existing rules (and justification) for how to apply feather fall when you fall due to a trap outside of combat - or before your turn in the initiative order.


Now the statement that the text of feather fall allows you to use even when it is not your turn is also within the existing rule structure in that specific text overrules general one. So even after the spell errata to make feather fall an immediate action that specific spell description text still can apply to supecede the immediate action restriction, again within the existing rules structure.

As far as tourneys go - do you not use a round structure to cover those? Isn't there initiative involved?

Combat system structure is supposed to apply to all types of encounters not just those involving combat - so IMO your single example of making an attack roll outside of combat misses the mark since the example is still within a combat round structure.

Now the DMG on page 25 does talk about combat actions outside of combat. But it does state that "As a general rule, combat actions should only be performed in combat - when you are keeping track of rounds and the players are acting in initiative order."

Basically this says that the combat structure does not only apply to strictly combat situations but to anytime where you are following initiative order and keeping rounds.

Now lets try looking at how to handle things outside of combat differently.

Assuming (not that I necessarily agree with this assumption) that flat-footed applies only during the initial round of combat. You should still not be allowed to have your Dex bonus to AC since per (PHB pg 8) "Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack"

PHB pg 134

"An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round."


So if attacked by a trap your AC should depend on whether or not you are aware of the trap or not. If you are not aware then you should not be able to apply your Dex Bonus (consider it denied, so that Dodge bonuses do not apply either).


The DM can start an encounter whenever he wishes to. Excuse me, the DM determines when an encounter begins (DMG pg 22).



All of my statemets are base on RAW and applying the RAW to similar situations in a consistent manner (as allowed by and encouraged by the DMG)

 

[Michael Silverbane]

So by this logic you have full AC until you start combat and then suddenly you lose your Dex Bonus until it is your turn in the initiative order.

Now traps either make attack rolls (ranged or melee), cause a saving throw (like spells) or are never miss.

Those that make attack rolls must take advantage of the "surprise" round - because - say it with me - you can't make an attack roll unless you are in a combat situation. Surprise counting as the pre-round combat situation.

This renders the 3rd level rogue's trap sense ability useless, since it is a dodge bonus, lost while flat-footed.

 

[Elethiomel]

This renders the 3rd level rogue's trap sense ability useless, since it is a dodge bonus, lost while flat-footed.

Only if they trade away Uncanny Dodge.
Dodge bonuses are lost when you're denied Dex bonus to AC, not when you are flat-footed (PHB p. 136). Rogues get their Dex bonus to AC even while flat-footed due to Uncanny Dodge.

This is not to be taken as an argument supporting either side of the "flat-footed always outside of combat?" debate.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Only if they trade away Uncanny Dodge.

A 3rd level rogue doesn't have Uncanny Dodge. As Michael Silverbane pointed out, ruling that someone is flat-footed outside of combat -- when the rules give a very specific definition and very specific timing of flat-footed, which is "only in combat" -- makes the Trap Sense ability useless for 3rd-level rogues.

 

[irdeggman]

A 3rd level rogue doesn't have Uncanny Dodge. As Michael Silverbane pointed out, ruling that someone is flat-footed outside of combat -- when the rules give a very specific definition and very specific timing of flat-footed, which is "only in combat" -- makes the Trap Sense ability useless for 3rd-level rogues.

Not really.

It would become useless if the rogue was "surprised" by the trap.

If the rogue was searching or attempting to disable the trap then in no way shape or form should they be considered "flat-footed" since they are performing actions that would put them into a round style of system.

Once in a round system then initiative flows properly.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

It would become useless if the rogue was "surprised" by the trap.

I guess it'd be possible to invent rules for that, too, sure.